Live data from Hacker News

Clayton Christensen has died

deseret.com

91–100 of 131 posts

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years You live in Boise. So... I know many black Mormons, but only in places with a significant black population. FWIW, Utah had a black LDS Congresswomen for the past several years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Love

As a former Mormon, black mormons were so rare that they were treated like celebrities.

Where did you live?

The LDS Church is headquarted in Utah, and the whole state is literally 1% black.

I'm a Mormon and grew up in Florida, and the LDS Church had a typical blend for a "mostly white church." (Realize that virtually every church has a clear racial majority of some kind.)

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#92
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every religion that has been around as long as the LDS Church has the same issues. But if you're comparing it to churches that have been around only 10, 30, or 50 years, sure. --- It used to be that the LDS Church was "too" pro-black by society's standards. That was a large reason for Missouri's infamous Mormon "Extermination Order": > We believed them deluded fanatics, or weak and designing knaves, and that t…

> From 1849 to 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) prohibited men of black African descent from being ordained to the priesthood. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormon_priest... ) AFAIU, in the LDS Church all men are ordained priests. So whatever their stance regarding African-Americans in the social and political sphere, institutionally the church was very unique, eve…

Huh? The Catholic Church is the #1 example of a church opposing modern sexual norms. (This is objectively true, regardless of whether you agree with those current norms or not.)

A. Celibate clergy.

B. Official policy of no homosexual priests (despite the fact they are celibate anyway) [1]

C. All-male clergy, and the excommunication of any violators [2]

D. Complete ban on contraceptives

E. Political and moral opposition to same-sex marriage

The Catholic Church's stances on sexuality go far past those of the LDS Church.

I will grant that the Catholic Church is more racially diverse; it's one of the consequences of its vast colonial legacy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_Concerning_the_Cri...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women_and_the_Ca...

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#93

I had a chance to see him at the Business of Software conference in 2011. Incredible mind. He will be missed. Here's the video of his talk: https://vimeo.com/63125209

Hey - me too! Had he recently had a stroke prior to that conference? I don't remember the details but thought something about bright lights really bothered him. Of note: I don't think he started his PHD until he was 50. I wish more people at this stage of their lives pursued his sort of deep, meaningful research combined with personal reflection and experience.

Yes, he had a stroke in the summer of 2010.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#94
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention Utah was the second state to grant women the right to vote.

That implies that Utah is (or was) a theological state, which is an accusation and stereotype the LDS Church has been fighting since before statehood.

Utah was definitely not a theocracy at the time suffrage was obtained.

It's actually a fascinating story. Mormons largely supported suffrage, but had to fight the federal government tooth and nail to get it.

In 1869, Utah was under territorial rule, and the federally-appointed government was determined to limit the influence of the LDS Church and end polygamy. The legislature even passed female suffrage during their efforts to rid polygamy from the state.

But it had exactly the opposite effect; most woman voted in favor of allowing polygamy. Thereafter, some national supporters of women's rights actually became opposed to women's suffrage in Utah because of it was being used to support polygamy. (Enfranchisement all fine and well until someone disagrees with you.)

In 1887, Congress redoubled its efforts to end polygamy, and revoked the ability of woman to vote that the legislature had granted earlier.

The LDS Church supported the creation of the Utah Women's Suffrage Organization, to try and restore the right to vote. A Utah Territory judge sided with the women's movement, but the Supreme Court rejected it, citing Congress' law.

Not until the Church renounced polygamy, Utah obtained statehood, and the women's right to vote was included in the state constitution, were Utahns able to undo the Congress' targeted repeal of suffrage.

Utah women then helped secure the Nineteenth Amendment[1].

[1] https://www.utahwomenshistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02... (The man in the picture was Senator Reed Smoot, who was also an Apostle in the LDS Church.)

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#95

More than anything, I admire him for the way in exemplified a balanced life. He was obviously hugely influential in the realm of business, but his career was clearly only ever a single part of his life, rather than the entirety of his life. He was wise without being arrogant. He was spiritual and contemplative without being preachy. He seems very much like the kind of person I aspire to be.

I did not find Christensen to be especially humble. I recall thinking his response to Jill Lepore's story [1] to be ... not humble. To be clear, I think Christensen's ideas are useful. [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/06/23/the-disruption...

Would you be able to point me to his response? I found Lepore's story fascinating.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#96

Like many here I found "How Will You Measure Your Life" particularly helpful. The book was based on a letter to his students, which provides a nice summary and I keep handy to share with people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B50RBERcUJSba2Fmd2Z0VzdtZm8...

that’s a fantastic document with lots of great advice

to me this was the best part:

> I’ve concluded that the metric by which God will assess my life isn’t dollars but the individual people whose lives I’ve touched. > I think that’s the way it will work for us all. Don’t worry about the level of individual prominence you have achieved; worry about the individuals you have helped become better people.

——

this is, in my opinion, how we in a society can “have good things” and is so easy for us to forget in our day-to-day... it’s so easy to get selfish and unintentionally hurt/damage others...

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#97
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So without stereotyping too harshly, I wonder if his humility came from his faith? I've met quite a few LDS who show significant tolerance for beliefs that conflict with their own, maybe because historically Mormons have been the victims of intolerance?

Exmormon here who has spent significant time with relatively larger names in that org. No, Clay was pretty unique in my view. With due respect to him, the tolerance of conflicting belief often portrayed by his co-adherents is typically extended as a proselytizing or marketing tactic and isn't offered to former Mormon congregants terribly often (see reddit.com/r/exmormon for thousands of documented experiences, or the…

[deleted]

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#98
post #61
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marketing tactic or not, if that is the behavior, that's the behavior, it's unfair to ascribe intentions and discount the behavior. There are definitely some LDS that fall into the trap of taking offense when someone leaves the religion and then don't treat that person well. They take it as a personal slight that someone else is claiming their religion is wrong. Either by actions or in words. But I have also noticed…

Look up Heartsell[0][1] sometime. Bonneville Communications is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mormon church. They attempted to sell inclusion and heartfelt feelings as a marketing strategy. They got caught the first time and it was minorly bad PR. They haven't been caught since. Note this is what the central organization does, of which most of the congregants are naive or deliberately uninformed. When I taught miss…

BRT seems like a pretty good principle. As long as it's not "BRT until you can stab" or "BRT until you have all their money" or whatever. You seem to be pointing an accusing finger at BRT. I'm guessing you may have had some experience with "BRT and they'll come around to your way of thinking." But I imagine that even those aren't usually malicious. Granted, they don't have to be malicious to be off-putting, but try to take it with good humor.

If you're willing to not suspect the worst, sometimes you can appreciate somebody like the person described in these posts and admire their goodness and the general goodness of everyone.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#99
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From 1849 to 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) prohibited men of black African descent from being ordained to the priesthood. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormon_priest... ) AFAIU, in the LDS Church all men are ordained priests. So whatever their stance regarding African-Americans in the social and political sphere, institutionally the church was very unique, eve…

Huh? The Catholic Church is the #1 example of a church opposing modern sexual norms. (This is objectively true, regardless of whether you agree with those current norms or not.) A. Celibate clergy. B. Official policy of no homosexual priests (despite the fact they are celibate anyway) [1] C. All-male clergy, and the excommunication of any violators [2] D. Complete ban on contraceptives E. Political and moral oppositi…

Objective truth? Who teaches that these days! :)

A: Celibacy as a nominal choice is part of the emerging asexual ‘sexual norm’ found mostly in Asia but spreading to the west.

B: This point is usually a confusion of terms. Men who are attracted to men but are celibate are currently priests in many parts of the world.

C: True

D: The Catholic Church has no power to ban anything.

E: Also a confusion of terms between secular and religious groups. It’s analogous to arguing about whether everyone can physically become pregnant, because the religious definition of what they call ‘holy matrimony’ involves more than just feelings.

1/5 objective truth points :)

Post reply on HN