Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Clayton Christensen has died

deseret.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 131 posts

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#41

Post by paulddraper »

wahern wrote: post #37
paulddraper wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with many religions, "tolerance" is a sensitive issue: blacks, women, LGBT. But yes, there is the stereotype of a humble/reserved successful Mormon businessman. (E.g. I'd put Mitt Romney in that category too)

Not many religions in the U.S. have tolerance issues with "blacks" or "women", per se. The LDS church was unique in that regard. But to be fair, that aspect seems to have been sincerely discarded. What lingers is the uncomfortable landscape it finds itself in, and given the background racial landscape in the U.S., I'm sure it'll be an especially long journey out of that wilderness.

Almost every religion that has been around as long as the LDS Church has the same issues.

But if you're comparing it to churches that have been around only 10, 30, or 50 years, sure.

---

It used to be that the LDS Church was "too" pro-black by society's standards.

That was a large reason for Missouri's infamous Mormon "Extermination Order":

> We believed them deluded fanatics, or weak and designing knaves, and that they and their pretensions would soon pass away; but in this we were deceived...In a late number of the Star [the Mormon newspaper], published in Independence by the leaders of the sect, there is an article inviting free Negroes and mulattoes from other states to become "Mormons," and remove and settle among us. This exhibits them in still more odious colors...the introduction of such a caste among us would corrupt our blacks, and instigate them to bloodshed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44

Yes somehow, very few discussions of Missouri immediately turn to its history of racism.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#42

Post by ashton314 »

ticmasta wrote: post #28
NeutralCrane wrote: post #25

More than anything, I admire him for the way in exemplified a balanced life. He was obviously hugely influential in the realm of business, but his career was clearly only ever a single part of his life, rather than the entirety of his life. He was wise without being arrogant. He was spiritual and contemplative without being preachy. He seems very much like the kind of person I aspire to be.

So without stereotyping too harshly, I wonder if his humility came from his faith? I've met quite a few LDS who show significant tolerance for beliefs that conflict with their own, maybe because historically Mormons have been the victims of intolerance?

As with every religion, the faithfulness of its adherents to the religion’s principles varies from person to person. But certainly the ideal that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches is exactly that: humility, compassion, and tolerance, combined with courage to do what is right regardless of the circumstances.

At least for members of the church living in Utah, many (no not all!) have some pioneer heritage. We frequently remind ourselves that persecution is a terrible thing and that we must be tolerant and respectful of other’s beliefs.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#43

Post by snuxoll »

warent wrote: post #29
ticmasta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So without stereotyping too harshly, I wonder if his humility came from his faith? I've met quite a few LDS who show significant tolerance for beliefs that conflict with their own, maybe because historically Mormons have been the victims of intolerance?

It's interesting because I've always perceived Mormonism (at least the dogmatic kind) as being intolerant given its history of racism and sexism. I suppose a lot has changed over the years, although I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years

> I've still never met a black mormon and I even lived in Boise for like 4 years

Boisean myself, it’s not exactly like we have much diversity here to begin with - on any given day it feels I’m as likely to spot a non-Caucasian individual as I am a unicorn.

That said, I’ve known plenty of LDS members over my life, and just like any religious group you can see ones that are actually tolerant of other beliefs and ones that put on a mask and speak differently behind your back. Then there’s the ones that would speak poorly directly to your face.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#44

Post by bart_spoon »

ticmasta wrote: post #28
NeutralCrane wrote: post #25

More than anything, I admire him for the way in exemplified a balanced life. He was obviously hugely influential in the realm of business, but his career was clearly only ever a single part of his life, rather than the entirety of his life. He was wise without being arrogant. He was spiritual and contemplative without being preachy. He seems very much like the kind of person I aspire to be.

So without stereotyping too harshly, I wonder if his humility came from his faith? I've met quite a few LDS who show significant tolerance for beliefs that conflict with their own, maybe because historically Mormons have been the victims of intolerance?

As a Mormon myself, I will be the first to say that there can and are plenty of Mormons who are not what I would consider tolerant. But on the whole, I think we are relatively tolerant in regards to other faiths and spiritual beliefs, in large part for the reason you state.

I grew up in an area of the country without many Mormons, and was perhaps one of a dozen Mormon kids in a high school of well over a thousand students. I wouldn't say I was ever bullied over my religion in the traditional sense, I found it to be a pretty consistent source of discomfort and a feeling of being an "other". Often it could be innocuous (and often very fruitful) classroom discussions about Mormonism after the subject would come in class and the teacher would discover I was Mormon, and therefore became the focus of the discussion. Other times it would come in the form of other students asking me if I wore funny underwear or if my dad had lots of wives, and usually wasn't hostile in nature but made me feel pretty ostracized or defensive. And unfortunately I would get someone assuring me their pastor said I was going to hell, or accusing me of being in a cult, or offended that I could possibly be a Mormon when Joseph Smith/Brigham Young/Some other church figure said/did X without realizing that being Mormon for many people is as much a part of their cultural makeup and heritage as it is their religious belief, nor did I, an individual Mormon, of high school age, completely understand my own personal views, let alone be able to answer for everything ever uttered in the realm of Mormonism (which still is the case, now that I'm older). I found I bonded quite a bit with the handful of Muslim, Jewish, and Atheist kids as they were also in the minority and felt on the outs at times in my school.

It probably also has to do with the 2 year missions many Mormons serve. It's a very unique and strange experience that opens your eyes to the world in a way that is hard to do otherwise. Because its missionary work people may assume the opposite, but for me, serving as a Mormon missionary in Japan made me realize how much I didn't know about people and the world, and the depth and breadth of human culture and individuality. It made me re-contextualize my beliefs and consider what I truly believed and what I had only been telling myself I believed. I think this is in part the reason why there are a decent number of Mormons who serve missions for two years and then eventually move away from the church. But for those who don't it provides an opportunity to learn about and get to know other spiritual and cultural perspectives that is hard to match.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#45

Post by jjeaff »

tomrod wrote: post #30
ticmasta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So without stereotyping too harshly, I wonder if his humility came from his faith? I've met quite a few LDS who show significant tolerance for beliefs that conflict with their own, maybe because historically Mormons have been the victims of intolerance?

Exmormon here who has spent significant time with relatively larger names in that org. No, Clay was pretty unique in my view. With due respect to him, the tolerance of conflicting belief often portrayed by his co-adherents is typically extended as a proselytizing or marketing tactic and isn't offered to former Mormon congregants terribly often (see reddit.com/r/exmormon for thousands of documented experiences, or the…

Marketing tactic or not, if that is the behavior, that's the behavior, it's unfair to ascribe intentions and discount the behavior.

There are definitely some LDS that fall into the trap of taking offense when someone leaves the religion and then don't treat that person well. They take it as a personal slight that someone else is claiming their religion is wrong. Either by actions or in words.

But I have also noticed that many ex-mormons are like vegans. They want to tell everyone about it and preach to everyone else that is still "eating meat". There are also quite a few that are extra sensitive and seem to try to make themselves feel better by bashing their ex-religion and those that are still adherents.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#46

Post by scarface74 »

NeutralCrane wrote: post #25

More than anything, I admire him for the way in exemplified a balanced life. He was obviously hugely influential in the realm of business, but his career was clearly only ever a single part of his life, rather than the entirety of his life. He was wise without being arrogant. He was spiritual and contemplative without being preachy. He seems very much like the kind of person I aspire to be.

Well, he did write a book about living a balanced life:

"How to measure your life". He wrote it with James Allworth - the cohost of Exponent. A podcast with Ben Thompson of Stratechery fame.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#47

Post by asveikau »

compiler-guy wrote: post #40
wahern wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many religions in the U.S. have tolerance issues with "blacks" or "women", per se. The LDS church was unique in that regard. But to be fair, that aspect seems to have been sincerely discarded. What lingers is the uncomfortable landscape it finds itself in, and given the background racial landscape in the U.S., I'm sure it'll be an especially long journey out of that wilderness.

The LDS church was not unique in that regard at all. They are just ~30 years behind the society around them. For example, they had massive problems fully accepting blacks until the seventies, which was long after most mainstream religions got over their issues. But most mainstream religions (at least the protestand ones) had all kinds of trouble themselves in the forties. The LDS church isn't unique in its problems,…

I have no data, just a guess based on my understanding of cultural history, but I have to imagine that many churches in the US have been segregated at the local level and often de facto, rather than as a larger thing with formal institutional endorsement.

For example, we Americans stereotype Catholicism as reflecting some European immigrant communities like Irish, Italians, Polish... But it's always been ok for an African American to be a Catholic. Probably in prior eras especially some of those communities of white Europeans would not have been terribly welcoming to such a person to say the least. But you couldn't say the international organization with HQ in Rome was against them being members. Or maybe I am wrong.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#48

Post by jjeaff »

wahern wrote: post #37
paulddraper wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with many religions, "tolerance" is a sensitive issue: blacks, women, LGBT. But yes, there is the stereotype of a humble/reserved successful Mormon businessman. (E.g. I'd put Mitt Romney in that category too)

Not many religions in the U.S. have tolerance issues with "blacks" or "women", per se. The LDS church was unique in that regard. But to be fair, that aspect seems to have been sincerely discarded. What lingers is the uncomfortable landscape it finds itself in, and given the background racial landscape in the U.S., I'm sure it'll be an especially long journey out of that wilderness.

That's laughable. How many black congregants do you think there were in white churches in the south in the 70s? There were no public curfuffles because it's simply not an issue if there are literally zero people of another race in your congregation.

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#49

Post by euph0ria »

Clayton Christensen has been a great example to me in both business life and spiritual life. We studied his works in business school a lot but my favorite teaching that he ever gave was his "Decisions for which I've been grateful": http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2...

Re: Clayton Christensen has died

#50

Post by jmhyer123 »

bitL wrote: post #18

I remember his lecture at Harvard when he talked about how cancer diagnosis/heart attack changed him while he was writing "How Will You Measure Your Life". Father of disruptive innovation, RIP.

Any chance you have a link for this? I'd love to watch/read that.
Post reply on HN