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In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

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Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#111
post #36
post #2

Excellent New Yorker piece about this (I submitted it to HN when it came out but it didn't get any traction): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil... Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.

> Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims. As someone from a Muslim country, this comparison strikes me as facile and ignorant. It’s not just a group of people being viewed as “the other.” Even Muslim majority countries are facing challenges. In Bangladesh, the government is taking actions that people in western countries would probably liken to “fas…

Fascism will always seed as a reactionary impulse against competing traditions. And it is competition, on a culturally genetic level.

The choices for all immigrants are assimilation or coexistence, and the latter is a strong lightning rod for the anxieties of neighbors wary of anything different.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#112
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The press in the US is just as factional as the parties. But there's a subset who live off slander - Alex Jones eventually got sued off the air for lying about Sandy Hook. That kind of thing does far more damage than just supporting one party or the other.

Which is why it's illegal and you get sued for it. I don't think that's a good comparison - something illegal that is routinely punished vs something that is neither illegal nor punished, but has massive effect

Well, it's not criminal and it's very hard to succeed in a slander action in the US. So it's very rarely punished. Which is why he could run a channel of lies for two decades. Most of the time it was bizarre fictional allegations against the government.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason why Moses included it in the ten commandments...

I believe it was God who included it, Moses just wrote it down.

No theological statement intended. Just meant that people clearly enjoyed the "sin" of malicious deceit even two thousand years ago.

Nothing new under the sun.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#115

Site seems dead. India is home to many minorities, infact the second or third largest Muslim population so it could have not been that without being tolerant to them. Meanwhile Sikhs and hindus are fleeing pakistan. Radesh Singh Tony, the serving president of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa’s Pakistan Minorities’ Alliance, has been reportedly forced to leave his city in Pakistan https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/12202384268…

I dream of a day when India isn't perennially hyphenated to Pakistan. How does it matter to India how Pakistan treats its minorities? How is that a yardstick for our morality? Shouldn't the yardstick be a more successful nation a la Norway?

because they were part of india. Move one mile into india then chase locals. then move another mile. This has been the tactic for the past 200 years.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#117
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unfair. Republic and India tv appears to be pro government where as NDTV and other appears to be anti-BJP channels.

Check out the analysis of 200 prime-time debates done by peeing human. Republic, India TV, Zee News, ABP News, Aaj Tak, Times Now, Sudarshan News and countless regional channels are pro-govt. NDTV is the last channel standing.

r/india can make up for all of them.

r/india Mods insta-ban any pro-BJP/pro-India/pro-conservative commenters. Now, THAT is fascism.

Check out r/indiaspeaks where dissenting opinions are not banned.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#118
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common they are. In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the popul…

> In Germany, with the largest Jewish population Uh... you mean if you ignore Poland, Romania, and the USSR? > they accounted for less than 1% of the populace From the same article you cited, it was 9.5% in Poland, 3.4% in the USSR (which had a larger population than Germany), 4% in Romania, 4.9% in Latvia, 7.6% in Lithuania, 5% in Hungary. The fraction of Jews in Poland, or the other countries I menioned, did nothin…

> From the same article you cited, it was 9.5% in Poland, 3.4% in the USSR (which had a larger population than Germany), 4% in Romania, 4.9% in Latvia, 7.6% in Lithuania, 5% in Hungary.

Yes, I was mistakenly going from numbers presented for Western Europe.

> The fraction of Jews in Poland, or the other countries I menioned, did nothing to prevent them being seen as "the other" there, if you read some contemporary accounts.

As I covered elsewhere, I was (because of my own misinterpretation) approaching this more from a Nazi Germany standpoint, and trying to highlight differences from that. I think there's a reason why Jews were able to be scapegoated to the degree they were in Germany, and why it wasn't as bad elsewhere, and I think a lot of that is to do with relative population sizes. At ~1%, you can force your will on a people. At 15-25%, that's a civil war if you try, and there's enough people of that population that it's very hard to not have exposure to a degree that deflates some of that "the other" rhetoric. It's like if the same were applied to latino and hispanic people in the United States, which account for just over 16% of the population in the 2010 census. Not illegal aliens, but all people of that race. That's a really hard sell, because almost everyone knows someone personally that falls into that category that helps go against that narrative just by existing and having contact. I'm willing to bet it's easier in some areas of the world with similar percentages because the influx of Muslims is more recent and less established, but I'm not immediately convinced it's enough to get to what we saw in Germany.

If you want to restrict the discussion to a very vague "the other" that's less extreme, then I'm not really in disagreement. I do believe there are attempts to use Muslims as convenient scapegoats. I'm just not sure to what degree it works in a lot of places, given how many Muslims there are there (and to the degree it works, I think the number of Muslims means there will be a very different response from them if some group attempts to ramp it up).

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#119
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples of being muzzled?

Internet in Kashmir has been down for the longest period ever in a democracy, 172 days and counting [0]. Several cities in UP, Karnataka also faced Internet shut downs during recent protests [1]. [0] https://www.dw.com/en/indian-court-kashmir-indefinite-intern... [1] https://www.medianama.com/2019/12/223-internet-shutdown-up-k...

Anytime a protest/riot spills onto the street in any country, there will be 2 groups of people :

1. Those who value privacy over security

2. Those who value security over privacy

No matter which side any government tilts towards, even if its a reasonably balanced approach, the other side will complain about it.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#120
post #8

Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.

> I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea

Facsism yesterday : Persecute minorities

Fascism today : Help persecuted minorities

Sounds good to me.

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