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Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

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61–70 of 95 posts

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#61
I used to like asking other jazz musicians I met for the first time, and hadn't heard, Are you good? (asked with a smile sometimes) People who actually are good never say 'yes' or talk like they think they are. It's interesting hearing what people say, anyway.

Otherwise, asking people who their favourite players are is a quick test, when suspicious. I've come across a few "jazz musicians" who can't even name a single jazz musician. Also, in chess, asking who someone's favourite players are is a quick test of whether they're any good.

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#62
post #27

In grappling (Brazilian jiu-jitsu), it is very apparent from one sparring round with a person to get a sense for what they know and get a general idea for their skill/belt level. The exact belt is determined by that person's coach by measuring their skill against their personal potential. An analogy to software would be to pair program with a person. You both get a feel for each other's strengths and weaknesses while…

Has anyone in the world actually delivered effective, large scale software that was primarily pair programmed? Genuine question. It would be fascinating if there were documented examples. Note that this is distinct from having a company culture where pair programming is common. I am skeptical that just because you occasionally look over each other’s shoulder and exchange ideas, that the software ends up being fundame…

Guy Steele expresses similar admiration. Currently a research scientist for Sun Microsystems, he remembers Stallman primarily as a "brilliant programmer with the ability to generate large quantities of relatively bug-free code." Although their personalities didn't exactly mesh, Steele and Stallman collaborated long enough for Steele to get a glimpse of Stallman's intense coding style. He recalls a notable episode in the late 1970s when the two programmers banded together to write the editor's "pretty print" feature. Originally conceived by Steele, pretty print was another keystroke-triggerd feature that reformatted Emacs' source code so that it was both more readable and took up less space, further bolstering the program's WYSIWIG qualities. The feature was strategic enough to attract Stallman's active interest, and it wasn't long before Steele wrote that he and Stallman were planning an improved version.

"We sat down one morning," recalls Steele. "I was at the keyboard, and he was at my elbow," says Steele. "He was perfectly willing to let me type, but he was also telling me what to type.

The programming session lasted 10 hours. Throughout that entire time, Steele says, neither he nor Stallman took a break or made any small talk. By the end of the session, they had managed to hack the pretty print source code to just under 100 lines. "My fingers were on the keyboard the whole time," Steele recalls, "but it felt like both of our ideas were flowing onto the screen. He told me what to type, and I typed it."

The length of the session revealed itself when Steele finally left the AI Lab. Standing outside the building at 545 Tech Square, he was surprised to find himself surrounded by nighttime darkness. As a programmer, Steele was used to marathon coding sessions. Still, something about this session was different. Working with Stallman had forced Steele to block out all external stimuli and focus his entire mental energies on the task at hand. Looking back, Steele says he found the Stallman mind-meld both exhilarating and scary at the same time. "My first thought afterward was: it was a great experience, very intense, and that I never wanted to do it again in my life."

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#63
post #20

As a physics student, my test for myself is always to (surprise myself with) deriving a given equation from scratch. My "long term" goal in terms of scientific and mathematical maturity is to git gud at calculating path integrals in quantum mechanics.

Many years ago I graduated university with a major in mathematics and I used to think I was pretty good at picking up new maths including pretty advanced stuff like calculus of variations and fourier analysis but for some reason I'm having a real hard time getting into quantum mechanics and Hamiltonians and all that. Am I getting old? Just out of practice? It annoys me...

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#64
post #63
post #20

As a physics student, my test for myself is always to (surprise myself with) deriving a given equation from scratch. My "long term" goal in terms of scientific and mathematical maturity is to git gud at calculating path integrals in quantum mechanics.

Many years ago I graduated university with a major in mathematics and I used to think I was pretty good at picking up new maths including pretty advanced stuff like calculus of variations and fourier analysis but for some reason I'm having a real hard time getting into quantum mechanics and Hamiltonians and all that. Am I getting old? Just out of practice? It annoys me...

Have you studied Analytical Mechanics first? Sakurai is a very good book for QM.

If you don't get it physically first then the feynman lectures are very good - physics is more than postulates and proof, at very least there's less to memorise if you start from the bottom.

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#65
post #33
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah but have you considered that if you put a mouse in a slowly oscillating catastrophic magnetic field you get a usually statistically insignificant outcome!! Wake up sheeple

Studies have repeatedly shown non-ionizing radiation has no long term health effects. As material science closes the tetrahertz gap, the longitudinal studies, by their very definition, take time to complete (longitudinal studies = exposing animals or individuals at lower doses for much longer periods of times). It's natural for an undisciplined mind to assume they're also non-ionizing. But it is a mark of a disciplin…

Do you think that light bulbs cause cancer? They emit higher frequency radiation than 5G.

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#66
post #31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could say the same thing about people who talk about radiation without mentioning what part of the frequency spectrum they are referring to.

Exactly, such people who do know would clearly understand my comments are around the allocations of 5G in the tetrahertz range, where the gap is shrinking, instead of uncharitably mischaracterizing my statements in the worst possible light (5G allocations elsewhere in the spectrum).

If you mean terahertz, 5G is supposed to top out around 85ghz. Also terahertz range is the start of infrared light. If you think that is dangerous, you might not want to sit too close to a campfire.

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#67
post #55
post #29

Sigh. DK, as commonly cited, is not simply "competence." It hypothesizes a meta-cognitive bias whereby a person who is incompetent is cognitively incapable of determining their level of competence. Everyone has biases, and the reason citing DK may come across the wrong way is it tends to suggest that it's just Other People who have those biases. From this piece[1] arguing that we routinely misinterpret DK: > I suspec…

I am not sure I understand. It sounds like DK claim that assessing one's own competence is difficult (perhaps impossible). I don't see how that conflicts with the title. It is asking for a test that can assess one's rough ability.

It's not contradictory. My point is it's counterproductive to bring DK into the picture, and I'm pushing back against the way it's used in popular culture. (So, absolutely tilting at windmills, but oh well.)

First, it's adding a false veneer of scientism. All it's asking for is a rough test of competence; citing a wholly irrelevant science paper won't make that test grounded in any kind of methodology.

Second, there's this implied moral condemnation of people who are incompetent. Obviously, we're all incompetent in most things, so that's a strange thing to moralize. But the way DK is used in popular culture, there's an added dimension of, "this arrogant idiot thinks he's competent, but my test really took him down a peg."

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#68
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A query builder with no ORM functionality.

Alternately, a resultset-to-object-property and argument mapper with no query building or templating functionality or higher aspirations.

Just store the JSON in a K/V store

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#69
post #12
post #5

Don't know about questions, but there are couple of answers I have learned to be serious red flags: 1. Yes, I understand. (with no further elaboration or clarifying questions) 2. It's okay/good/going well (again, with no further elaboration when asking how something is going/set up etc) First one typically translates to something between "I have a completely unfounded illusion of understanding" and "I have no clue bu…

#2 might alternately be symptomatic of not wanting to chat with you on the matter, no?

Of course. I thought the context was quite obviously me being in a position where I am expected, for whatever reason, to make a judgement of my opponent's capabilities/progress/quality of work/whatever. At that point I do not that much care if the opponent is a dunning krueger nutcase, just not interested chatting with me, or as per many of your sibling comments, just thinking they know what they are doing so well they do not need to explain details to me. Outcome is the same. Bayes makes me expect that these people are useless. (Obviously Bayes lets me make exceptions once a certain individual has proved himself)

Re: Ask HN: What would the Dunning-Kruger “test” be for your field?

#70

Tell me about an opinion you hold on some piece of technology (framework, language, design pattern, etc.), one you have a fair amount of conviction about and hold pretty strongly. Now tell me how you arrived at that opinion and conviction.

Depending on what opinion they pull out, I might tweak that and suggest: "What's the argument against that opinion?" From what I've seen, a lot of people can rattle off reasons they've heard for why a particular thing is done, but have not deeply considered the opposite side of that opinion and what its benefits may be. Ymmv.

This smacks as unreliable to me because I have a "Devils advocate" sort of mindset REGARDLESS of my actual level of expertise. I find the issue with this sort of mindset is that it makes you better at tearing down other peoples opinions than it does at coming up with a brilliant opinion of your own. This is problematic when you're trying to do something innovative in a crowded saturated field.
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