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In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

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Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#101

Post by bzbarsky »

kbenson wrote: post #13
Despegar wrote: post #2

Excellent New Yorker piece about this (I submitted it to HN when it came out but it didn't get any traction): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil... Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.

With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common they are. In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the popul…

> In Germany, with the largest Jewish population

Uh... you mean if you ignore Poland, Romania, and the USSR?

> they accounted for less than 1% of the populace

From the same article you cited, it was 9.5% in Poland, 3.4% in the USSR (which had a larger population than Germany), 4% in Romania, 4.9% in Latvia, 7.6% in Lithuania, 5% in Hungary.

The fraction of Jews in Poland, or the other countries I menioned, did nothing to prevent them being seen as "the other" there, if you read some contemporary accounts.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#102

Post by bzbarsky »

kbenson wrote: post #49
bobthepanda wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland > One-fifth of the Polish population perished during World War II; the 3,000,000 Polish Jews murdered in The Holocaust, who constituted 90% of Polish Jewry, made up half of all Poles killed during the war.[15][16] Given that Germany at the time had an official policy of expanding into it…

> Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population Yes, but those weren't the countries that had successful info campaigns against that sub-population, to my knowledge. It took Poland's defeat by Germany before Germany could enforce their own policies (developed in a nation with a much lower Jewish population). Indeed, your own source notes that in the pre-war period while there was increases an…

> Yes, but those weren't the countries that had successful info campaigns against that sub-population, to my knowledge.

Yes, the Poles were not trying to kill all the Jews in Poland. But "othering" Jews in Poland was _very_ par for the course, as was violence directed at them, discrimination against them, etc.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#103

Post by happytoexplain »

theseadroid wrote: post #34
coldcode wrote: post #8

Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.

Because you probably live a comfortable life. For people who are struggling and see no hope of changing for better they often support more extreme policies just to "rock the boat". Years of rising inequality in many societies have created more people who'd like to have things change drastically.

This doesn't really match up to what I see, which is the people who find fascism attractive also idolizing and politically supporting the wealthy. Usually the people admittedly wanting to "rock the boat" are talking about social politics, which leaves little room for sympathy when the tool used is fascism. It speaks of hatred and nihilism, not desperation and inequality.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#104

Post by goatinaboat »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #100
weirdstuff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After a long and respected career at MIT he’s no joke.

A long and respected career at MIT in linguistics does not make him an expert on international events. (He may still be one, but linguistics at MIT is not qualification for that.)

I’ll give Chomsky credit for successfully pivoting from linguist to polemicist before his so-called deep grammar was thoroughly debunked. If he’s actually an expert at anything, it’s only self-publicity.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#105

Post by happytoexplain »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #70
jammygit wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump likes to target Mexicans too and openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Next election is going to be dramatic. Then there’s China and its minorities being swept into mass concentration camps. Reminds me, I wonder what is happening in Hong Kong right now Edit: update on hk https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/hong…

> Trump... openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Would you count the Bushes as a dynasty? The Clintons (had Hillary won)? The Adams? A surprising number of Americans do not see being president as disqualifying your close relatives from ever being president. [Edit: Trump has said that he would like a third term. I don't know of any…

>Trump has said that he would like a third term. I don't know of any Americans that are actually OK with this.

Boy, we must not hang out in the same bars.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#106

Post by ameister14 »

pjc50 wrote: post #95
oh_sigh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the US media supports the US government for everything? Have you been reading the news the past 3 years? It seems to me to be just the opposite, where a majority of the voices in the media are against whatever the government(ie Trump) does. Heck, the few times when segments of the media agree with the government, it comes couched in language like "I hate Trump as much as you, but this time he might be onto…

The press in the US is just as factional as the parties. But there's a subset who live off slander - Alex Jones eventually got sued off the air for lying about Sandy Hook. That kind of thing does far more damage than just supporting one party or the other.

Which is why it's illegal and you get sued for it. I don't think that's a good comparison - something illegal that is routinely punished vs something that is neither illegal nor punished, but has massive effect

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#107

Post by goldfeld »

des_t wrote: post #48

I certainly don't support fascism but at least Hitler had some interest in science. Things are worse in India. We spent 0.8% of the GDP on Science and Technology. At the same time, a part of that (taxpayer money) is spent on Homeopathy, Ayurveda, and Cow Urine/Dung Research. Our policy-makers absolutely have no idea what evidence in science means. Here is an entertaining collection of statements by Indian ministers,…

It's no use saying "at least Hitler" if it was going to be used to exterminate your kind from the face of the Earth. In that case it's not "at least"; it's much worse.

Also of course vedic theory could be greater than any given theory, no matter how revolutionary, or it could not. It would obviously depend on perspectives and values on life.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#108

Post by vannevar »

mdorazio wrote: post #98
vannevar wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, the problem is less the sea of mainstream media noise than it is the carefully crafted puddle of right-wing misinformation, anchored by Fox News and bolstered by a variety of foreign and domestic special interests operating in social media.

I really hope you don't believe the left is free of misinformation, biased reporting, and algorithm-optimized bubble think. It's happening on both sides.

No, of course not. But the effort on the right is much more focused and concerted, with a lot more money behind it both domestically (the arms and energy industries) and from foreign actors (notably Russia). And these agents, particularly Russia, are not only producing right-wing memes but also left-wing ones, in order to undermine trust generally. What's happening now is not the usual emergent misinformation that bubbles up from randomly distributed extremists on both sides, but a much more organized effort.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#109

Post by theseadroid »

happytoexplain wrote: post #103
theseadroid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you probably live a comfortable life. For people who are struggling and see no hope of changing for better they often support more extreme policies just to "rock the boat". Years of rising inequality in many societies have created more people who'd like to have things change drastically.

This doesn't really match up to what I see, which is the people who find fascism attractive also idolizing and politically supporting the wealthy. Usually the people admittedly wanting to "rock the boat" are talking about social politics, which leaves little room for sympathy when the tool used is fascism. It speaks of hatred and nihilism, not desperation and inequality.

Inequality can be the root cause, but it is a hard problem to solve. Let alone powerful people who control the media would never want it to be solved. The result is people are not ready to face it directly. Instead they pick an easier solution such as fascism/racism, hoping the solution works somehow. Example: how many people blame foreigners for the absurd housing market? Because it's easier to blame someone else than thinking critically and find the root cause.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#110

Post by justincredible »

downerending wrote: post #99
stackreality wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fake news spread through WhatsApp aka people communicating as they have for thousands of years. People love making up stories and spreading them. We need to stop blaming software for human nature.

There's a reason why Moses included it in the ten commandments...

I believe it was God who included it, Moses just wrote it down.
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