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U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#271

Post by shmerl »

thewebcount wrote: post #263
shmerl wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's supposed to be a joke?

No, it's a legitimate question. Think of it this way. If we stop using Teflon coatings on pots and pans, will that, for example, increase the amount of cooking oil used in cooking? And if so, will that cause other health effects such as more oil being aerosolized and getting in people's lungs more? Will it cause more oil to clog up pipes (think London's "fatbergs" for example)? Will it cause more oil to go into landf…

I think oil concerns are much less problematic since you can decide what oil to use (or use no oil altogether) than ones that come from the chemicals you can't control because they are already in the water or your frying pan. You can simply cook, not fry if you worry about oil. On the other hand you can't avoid poisoned water unless you filter it.

So it's a false argument here.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#272

Post by rayiner »

coldtea wrote: post #165
nck4222 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Democracy is mostly a facade in the US anyway. But I agree, the US government isn't functioning 1) as originally intended or 2) for the benefit of the majority of the people it 'represents.' Although it's worth noting that 'as the forefathers intended' carries more weight than it typically should. Their intentions were mostly based on philosophical guess work, as they didn't have a whole lot of empirical data or exi…

> Although it's worth noting that 'as the forefathers intended' carries more weight than it typically should. Their intentions were mostly based on philosophical guess work Not to mention they're just some random people, nation building or not. No rational reason to treat their work like some higher command centuries later.

> Not to mention they're just some random people, nation building or not. No rational reason to treat their work like some higher command centuries later.

We treat their work "like some higher command" because it literally is that. Their work (the Constitution) creates a framework that overrides anything enacted by contemporary legislatures. The reason that's so important is because we often (usually?) don't agree on what rules should be. America has large numbers of people who think guns should be banned completely, and also large numbers of people who think teachers should carry firearms. The Constitution is a meta-rule that mediates those disagreements. Of course, to the extent we don't like any particular meta-rule, we could amend it with a 2/3 vote. We don't do that because we don't agree on what the alternative meta-rule should be!

It's entirely rational for everyone to adhere to those meta-rules. Democrats in New York can't just decide to ignore the Second Amendment because once that's out the window, Republicans in Alabama have no reason to respect Roe v. Wade. Everyone tries to interpret the rules to sanction their specific approach, but declaring that we can just decide for ourselves what the rules will be, without reference to the meta-rules, would lead to total breakdown.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#273

Post by _qwfv »

corey_moncure wrote: post #77
_qwfv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much the end state for Neoliberalism (which has been the prevailing mode for both parties). There's such an emphasis on protecting business and capital, and almost none on protecting the people.

In your view, what happens to the people when business and capital fail?

The same thing that's been happening for thousands of years -- we adapt. We gather together and support each other.

Capitalism wasn't the dominant mode for most of human history, and Neoliberal capitalism especially so (coming to prominence in the US in the 70s).

There are other ways to organize work/workers, for example into workers co-ops which have been shown to be efficient even at scales of billions of dollars of annual revenue.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#274

Post by ibeckermayer »

horsawlarway wrote: post #255
samatman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air-quality safety (among other things) is assured by the EPA, and it's done a lot to undermine that trust in the last couple of decades. Electronics safety is assured by UL, a private company. To date, they've maintained the public's trust in their services. If Consumer Reports publishes an exposé of UL taking kickbacks to certify substandard equipment, I'd become very interested in buying gear certified by a compet…

I find this comparison dead on arrival. Full stop. UL, a private company, can only exist because they charge manufacturers of electronics for their certification. No one is manufacturing the air we breathe (at least not yet...) so there is no revenue source for this kind of testing outside of public funding. Your whole comment is a classic example of attempting to apply market forces to a problem that has no market.…

Air safety certification could be seen as a market, with the buyers being localities (towns, cities, city-states, counties, etc).

I don’t think the issue is so much “markets vs govt” as it is accountability vs impunity. The issue with single-payer, nationalized air protection is that there’s a single point of failure and there’s no reasonable means of individual dissent (pulling funding, voting with one’s feet, etc).

Of course this line of thinking leads to some very politically incorrect conclusions.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#275

Post by networkimprov »

airesearcher wrote: post #167

You MUST watch the amazing film, “Dark Waters” .... it’s about the origin of this problem. DuPont knowingly poisoned the public. And the effects will never go away. And then people wonder why cancer rates are so high? Duh!!!

The documentary is The Devil We Know. It is riveting and heartbreaking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#277

Post by ibeckermayer »

CryptoBanker wrote: post #33
anoplus wrote: post #28

I would be interested to know what is the current trust level of the residents on the gov and EPA in the different states. Not far from my living area a new gas rig started operating where the gov, contractor company and EPA (EPA of my country that is) argue the chemical emissions doesn't pose health risks (same for sea water pollution risk), while self-funded environmental organizations argue otherwise and show inco…

Taxes are the original crowd funding

Yeah, they’re like a kickstarter campaign, except if you don’t support it they send guys with guns to your house to threaten you and take your stuff.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#279

Post by bobthechef »

thewebcount wrote: post #262
smitty1110 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gore-tex is PTFE, also known as Teflon, which is a flurocarbon. Several of the waste products or reactants for making Teflon are in the same category as DWR products, and are basically toxic forever. There's not much you can do if you need fabrics with these properties, you just need to pick you poison.

But Teflon doesn't react with anything . That's its purpose. So even though it's a fluorocarbon, it's unlikely to cause health problem because it just won't react with your body. Or is there some other mechanism through which it causes damage, such as blocking something by physically being in the way?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_fume_fever

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene#Safety

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#280

Post by thewebcount »

samatman wrote: post #90
anoplus wrote: post #28

I would be interested to know what is the current trust level of the residents on the gov and EPA in the different states. Not far from my living area a new gas rig started operating where the gov, contractor company and EPA (EPA of my country that is) argue the chemical emissions doesn't pose health risks (same for sea water pollution risk), while self-funded environmental organizations argue otherwise and show inco…

Air-quality safety (among other things) is assured by the EPA, and it's done a lot to undermine that trust in the last couple of decades. Electronics safety is assured by UL, a private company. To date, they've maintained the public's trust in their services. If Consumer Reports publishes an exposé of UL taking kickbacks to certify substandard equipment, I'd become very interested in buying gear certified by a compet…

Most people don't know what UL is or that they even exist. Of the few who do, many probably believe it's some government mandated thing.

Regardless, just because UL seems to be doing a decent job (I'm not really qualified to comment on that, just going on an assumption here), there have been other industry groups that were supposed to do the same thing and were basically utter failures. For example, the EnergyStar organization giving certification for a gasoline powered alarm clock[0].

[0] https://gizmodo.com/a-fake-gas-powered-alarm-clock-once-got-...

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