Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#21

Post by Alex3917 » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 3:15 AM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #20

Alex3917 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to abuse opiates can do a simple cold water extraction to almost completely remove the acetaminophen in less than five minutes, or else they can potentiate them using the techniques here so they only need a tiny dosage: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=305596 What this means is that the vast majority of those dying are those using these drugs for legitimate medical problem…

they're just propaganda to support what is essentially a government campaign to poison the elderly and chronic pain patients. The government is trying to murder the elderly with drug programs? This is almost a Godwin, but much more silly.

"This is almost a Godwin, but much more silly."

You want me to link to the obituaries?

Almost 1 in 3 Americans die from drug use or drug-related causes, and I really don't find that silly at all.

500,000 from tobacco and second-hand smoke. 106,000 from adverse reactions to prescription drugs in hospitals. 85,000 from alcohol and alcohol-related fatalities. 17,000 from illicit drugs. 7,500 from NSAIDs. 4,000 from HIV acquired from needle sharing, etc.

That means if we keep doing what we're doing now, if we don't change our policy on drugs, then of the 310 million Americans currently alive, at least 93 million will die from drug use.

Given the average US lifespan of 77, that's a full holocaust every 7.5 years. Obviously not every last death is avoidable, but the overwhelming majority of them are.

The ONLY solution is real education based on science, not propaganda. The drug war makes this completely impossible by A) banning science B) banning education C) banning treatment.

The fact is that drug addiction has nothing to do with the molecule, and so the way we are treating 'addiction' actually makes the problem vastly worse:

http://www.wpr.org/book/100307a.cfm

http://www.nijc.org/pdfs/Subject%20Matter%20Articles/Drugs%2...

So if this sounds like a Godwin argument, that's probably because the war on drugs is responsible for vastly more deaths than the holocaust.

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#22

Post by apu » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 3:17 AM UTC

Completely off-topic, but: There is a better review in the WSJ today but I can't link to it.

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#23

Post by kjhgtfbn » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 3:20 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #8

ojbyrne wrote: post #5

So total aside, inspired by the mention of denatured alcohol. How come you can buy bitters, which are up to 50% alcohol (i.e. 100 proof), without having to be of legal age?

I tried to buy bitters at 4 am the other day and they wouldn't let me due to the alcohol content. Pretty stupid, since getting intoxicated from bitters would be about as much fun as drinking cooking wine.

A UK supermarket was banned from selling liquor chocolates outside licencing hours!

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#24

Post by CapitalistCartr » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 3:26 AM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #20

Alex3917 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to abuse opiates can do a simple cold water extraction to almost completely remove the acetaminophen in less than five minutes, or else they can potentiate them using the techniques here so they only need a tiny dosage: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=305596 What this means is that the vast majority of those dying are those using these drugs for legitimate medical problem…

they're just propaganda to support what is essentially a government campaign to poison the elderly and chronic pain patients. The government is trying to murder the elderly with drug programs? This is almost a Godwin, but much more silly.

Its not at all silly. Its an example of the law of untended consequences. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Unintended_co... The intent isn't to "poison the elderly and chronic pain patients" but it is the effect, and has been going on long enough, that like all the other unintended consequences of TWOD, are ignored by the Federal bureaucracy that benefits from it.

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#25

Post by sguelich » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 3:37 AM UTC

Sad to see an HN thread full of conspiracy theories and so little actual science.

Believe it or not, acetaminophen is an effective analgesic, and combined with hydrocodone it provides synergistic pain relief without any increase in side effects over the use of either agent alone. Here's a peer-reviewed 1980 study from the UK showing just that:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1430165/

Private drug companies didn't pursue testing & selling hydrocodone/APAP in combined form because the government hates drug users. They did so because they can market a highly potent form of pain control. Not everything in life is a government conspiracy!

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#26

Post by j_baker » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 3:40 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #18

tokenadult wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statements about weed are very likely exaggerated in one direction, while the statements about acetaminophen are exaggerated in another. The cited journal article does not give full backup to the statements in your post.

From Wikipedia: "Paracetamol also modulates the endogenous cannabinoid system.[44] Paracetamol is metabolized to AM404, a compound with several actions; most importantly, it inhibits the uptake of the endogenous cannabinoid/vanilloid anandamide by neurons. Anandamide uptake would result in the activation of the main pain receptor (nociceptor) of the body, the TRPV1 (older name: vanilloid receptor). Furthermore, AM404…

> There is even some research suggesting that up to 50% of all infant mortality may be the result of marijuana deficiency.

I was going to ask what you're smoking, but then I realized that was a dumb question. :-)

I'm all for using pot for medicinal (and recreational) uses, but I think you've crossed the line from advocacy to cheerleading. Believe me when I say that if pot did all of the things you claim, I'd be in perfect health.

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#27

Post by kennywinker » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 4:01 AM UTC

sguelich wrote: post #25

Sad to see an HN thread full of conspiracy theories and so little actual science. Believe it or not, acetaminophen is an effective analgesic, and combined with hydrocodone it provides synergistic pain relief without any increase in side effects over the use of either agent alone. Here's a peer-reviewed 1980 study from the UK showing just that: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1430165/ Private drug companie…

Nobody is saying acetaminophen is ineffective, just that it's effects come with hepatotoxicity. A larger dosage of hydrocodone could have the same net analgesic effect without the huge negative effects.

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#28

Post by threejay » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 4:14 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #6

MichaelGG wrote: post #3

The sillier part of adding acetaminophen to hydrocodone and other opiates is that it's easy to remove the acetaminophen via cold water extraction. Thus, anyone looking to seriously abuse Vicodin can avoid the damage with just a bit of work.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to abuse opiates can do a simple cold water extraction to almost completely remove the acetaminophen in less than five minutes, or else they can potentiate them using the techniques here so they only need a tiny dosage: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=305596 What this means is that the vast majority of those dying are those using these drugs for legitimate medical problem…

Acetaminophen is not an NSAID and your claim that there is a "government campaign to poison the elderly and chronic pain patients" is laughably absurd.

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#29

Post by cynicalkane » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 4:14 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #21

cynicalkane wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they're just propaganda to support what is essentially a government campaign to poison the elderly and chronic pain patients. The government is trying to murder the elderly with drug programs? This is almost a Godwin, but much more silly.

"This is almost a Godwin, but much more silly." You want me to link to the obituaries? Almost 1 in 3 Americans die from drug use or drug-related causes, and I really don't find that silly at all. 500,000 from tobacco and second-hand smoke. 106,000 from adverse reactions to prescription drugs in hospitals. 85,000 from alcohol and alcohol-related fatalities. 17,000 from illicit drugs. 7,500 from NSAIDs. 4,000 from HIV…

You just said there was a government campaign to poison the elderly. Your words. Instead of trying to back up this ridiculous assertion--which you can't--you trot out all these statistics about drugs that are not Vicodin, as if you think that's relevant. Then you equate this with the Holocaust!

The Holocaust, man! The fact that people die from tobacco smoke every year is comparable to the Holocaust! This doesn't even have anything to do with the original post! Tobacco has nothing to do with controlled substances in the first place! Are you out of your mind?

I won't even address the assertion that "addiction has nothing to do with the molecule". Since a drug consists entirely of molecules, your claim doesn't make semantic sense.

I find you ignorant, irrelevant, and offensive. Disgusting, even.

Re: Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)

#30

Post by Alex3917 » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 4:19 AM UTC

threejay wrote: post #28

Alex3917 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to abuse opiates can do a simple cold water extraction to almost completely remove the acetaminophen in less than five minutes, or else they can potentiate them using the techniques here so they only need a tiny dosage: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=305596 What this means is that the vast majority of those dying are those using these drugs for legitimate medical problem…

Acetaminophen is not an NSAID and your claim that there is a "government campaign to poison the elderly and chronic pain patients" is laughably absurd.

"Acetaminophen is not an NSAID"

It's considered an NSAID for the purposes of tracking drug-related mortality even though it's not really an anti-inflammatory. To quote Wikipedia:

"It is classified as a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) by some sources,[12] and not as an NSAID by others,[13] while most sources implicitly distinguish them, for example by mentioning both NSAIDs and paracetamol in the same sentence.[14][15]"