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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#361

Post by yellowbeard »

azangru wrote: post #332

Not related to the thesis of the post, but this: > And yet, if you ask leading women researchers like Nobel Laureate in Physics 2018, Professor Donna Strickland, or Canada Research Chair in Advanced Functional Materials (Chemistry), Professor Eugenia Kumacheva, they say that sexism was not a barrier in their careers. — is such a bizarre argument to make. How can one conclude anything about sexism by asking leading wo…

Good point, this seems like a case of survivorship bias. However, I think it does seem to show some sort of upper bound on the level and pervasiveness of sexism? That it's at least _possible_ for women to achieve at the highest level in these fields means sexism didn't stop everyone.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#362

Post by gowld »

ck425 wrote: post #280
detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

It's worth noting that the amount of time parents (more so mothers) spend with each child has increased vastly, with relatively little evidence to suggest much increase in attainment. Most studies show that it's quality of time, not quantity, with parents that really matters. The evidence suggests we don't actually need to parent so much. Personally I see absolutely nothing wrong with sending kids to day care. We sho…

Quantity Time is Quality Time. Being there means a hell of a lot when it come to building deep-seated trust and understanding.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#363

Post by wvenable »

tylermenezes wrote: post #272

I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend, who works in STEM academia (and is otherwise a liberal, progressive feminist), expressed concerns similar to the author about having kids. When I brought up that it wasn't written in stone that she would need t…

It's becoming more acceptable that whomever is the lower-income partner is the one who is the primary caregiver of children (man or woman).

From what I can see, working in STEM academia definitely means you are likely to be the lower-income partner.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#364

Post by gowld »

entee wrote: post #323
codingmess wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hurting in some ways, for example in increased prices for housing. If families with two income earners compete with families with one income earner, the outlook is bleak for one earner families. Prices simply rise to what the two earner households can afford. In fact many families can not afford the single earner model anymore. There are also changed expectation, although presumably those can be managed. But onc…

The two income trap you mention was the subject of an Elizabeth Warren book sometime in the early 2000s. It’s a real issue, I’m not sure how to solve it, but it seems like a different larger scale issue. Also at this point its a little late. That societal evolution has already created facts on the ground such that in most larger cities it’s impossible to afford a good middle class lifestyle without two incomes. Given…

It's ironic that some of the most virulently anti-union people are also in favor of the most powerful Union that existed for increasing labor wages: the stay at home mother Union

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#365

Post by AndrewKemendo »

analbumcover wrote: post #325
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should also add to this that increasingly, large tech companies have access to much better data for nearly any area that is interesting for research. Further, companies can go from research to product that ostensibly makes a difference at scale with a speed that absolutely no University could. I'm really not seeing any reason to stay in academia whatsoever if you want to do the most exciting applied research toda…

> companies can go from research to product that ostensibly makes a difference at scale with a speed that absolutely no University could. Isn't that the point of being an academic? That you don't have much, if any, interest in generating a product?

I guess I didn't make my point clear.

For researchers at University of Toronto as well as within Google, neither (probably) wants to directly work on a product.

However both would certainly (At least in my experience) like their work to impact humanity on a wider scale then simply the number of citations their paper has. Again primarily thinking about applied researchers here.

So in that sense, both researchers are insulated from the producing of something business related based on their research. However one of them has a significantly greater chance of their research being used to actually affect people at large scale in their lifetime.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#366

Post by Proziam »

commandlinefan wrote: post #339
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because countries where women are dominated by men both legally and culturally, have higher rates of birth, crime, poverty, etc., than countries where women have a level of social mobility similar to men.

Actually, no, it’s the other way around - in less egalitarian countries, women are more likely to pursue science and technical careers.

I find it shocking that people so boldly cite the opposite as being true. I can't seem to discern a benefit to so confidently push a belief that doesn't hold up in reality. It's not as if the Nordic countries aren't doing pretty well, so why are people so resistant to the reality?

It's perfectly understandable that less economic and social pressures lead to people choosing things they actually want. It just happens to be that there's a notable difference in women's choices under those circumstances.

It certainly seems like there's substantial misinformation out there these days.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#367

Post by badfrog »

chadlavi wrote: post #299
badfrog wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the author seems to have a very narrow (and incorrect) view of what sexism is.

I do think that shedding light on the way structural sexism in policies regarding parental leave and childcare costs is a very useful thing to do, though!

Indeed. Aside from the labeling, I think this is a very good and important article.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#368

Post by gfodor »

ck425 wrote: post #280
detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

It's worth noting that the amount of time parents (more so mothers) spend with each child has increased vastly, with relatively little evidence to suggest much increase in attainment. Most studies show that it's quality of time, not quantity, with parents that really matters. The evidence suggests we don't actually need to parent so much. Personally I see absolutely nothing wrong with sending kids to day care. We sho…

Do you have any citations here? I've always assumed that mothers on average spend less time with their children than in the past, especially the far past, where the men were often abroad fighting wars.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#369

Post by allovernow »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #340
allovernow wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The assumption is that aptitude for these positions is roughly the same between genders, so if there's a significant imbalance, society doesn't get the best people on the given set of seats. An assumption which I have to point out is absolutely not verified. In fact, there are mountains of circumstantial, statistical, and biological evidence to the contrary - which policy makers in the west are increasingly ignoring…

There's no biological evidence to the contrary, and the statistical, circumstantial evidence can all be convincingly explained by the kinds of structural issues raised in the OP.

Are you sure about that? Consider the following non-inclusive list:

1. Differences in hormonal expression and response affecting behavior and interests, e.g. testosterone and competitiveness (biological)

2. Measured differences in performance in different types of intelligence, e.g. spatial reasoning (statistical)

3. Consistent differences in achievement and specialization between men and women across almost all societies and all of human history (circumstantial)

The truth may be inconvenient but the idea that men and women are on average equally suited to all tasks doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#370

Post by gowld »

henrikschroder wrote: post #101
detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

> and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children. Whoa, 50's regression much? Why not make room for fathers to take care of their own children? > in the care of poorly paid strangers Or you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development, who will ensure your children gets age- and stage-appropriate stimulation, as well as socialization with other children in a safe…

It's incredibly offensive and dumb to say that women don't know how to raise children, considering the millennia long track record.
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