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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#301

Post by scarejunba »

hinkley wrote: post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

It's okay to be jaded, but to present that as coming from wisdom that others are missing is both self-congratulatory and lacking in self-awareness.

I think you misrepresent startup founders. Most I've met are generally very smart people and they've read The Remains of the Day too so it's not like they're this nerd-in-the-basement fantasy you get from the movies. The Hollywood fantasy is dead.

I'm only saying this so that young fellows browsing HN from their computers at university aren't immediately discouraged. To them: The world is very exciting here. You can find a team and work happily and passionately on something you care about. You will be fine. It is probable that you will be better for it. Good luck!

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#302

Post by ck425 »

codingmess wrote: post #283
entee wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow. Given two mothers (gonna leave aside some of the baggage here, fathers can do child care, not all women/people are straight or fit in the conventional framework): Amanda wants to have kids but also wants to be a Supreme Court litigator. Jane wants kids and wants to stay at home to raise them. Why is giving Amanda the option hurting Jane’s ability to chose her preferred outcome? Should we force Aman…

It's hurting in some ways, for example in increased prices for housing. If families with two income earners compete with families with one income earner, the outlook is bleak for one earner families. Prices simply rise to what the two earner households can afford. In fact many families can not afford the single earner model anymore. There are also changed expectation, although presumably those can be managed. But onc…

What you fail to mention though is the whole host of benefits to society that comes from gender equality, equality that is a direct result of woman working.

Unfortunately it seems to be fundamentally difficult to make both models of the family work equally well simultaneously.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#303

Post by DavidVoid »

detoxdetox wrote: post #79
entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

>It is high time to recognize that 2 children is still a lot of effort and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children.

It's high time that fathers start putting in some more work in that department too. Sweden has 480 days of paid parental leave, and each parent has exclusive right to 90 of those days. Have fathers spend some time raising their kids instead of just letting their wives do it and you'll see that things should get better.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#304

Post by AlexCoventry »

fizwhiz wrote: post #226
thereisnospork wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By 27 they've probably just wrapped up their PhD and were making a paltry stipend to work in a professor's research lab followed by 2-4 years at a postdoc, asked for in every job application for a 'biologist II' which has an average salary of ~77k (per indeed). This is for industry, not academia. So how am I am misrepresenting the fact that being a biologist takes over 7+ years of being grossly underpaid relative t…

Forgive me for I live in a bubble so I don't know a great deal about why someone would spend that many years in school to land a 77k job. I also don't know much about compensation structure (ex: is comp == salary or are there other components?) I do know a couple of friends that work at Genentech who comfortably pull in > 200k so there's that.

Idealism, altruism. I was in computational biology, which is slightly less penurious, but FWIW, I wanted to make a contribution to medicine.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#305

Post by mcguire »

proc0 wrote: post #267

Why do we care that there are equal women and men again? Why does representation actually matter again? I would find it more exciting to see a field with no representation because I could make a greater impact! This whole ideology of having representation everywhere is very dumb and conformist.

proc0 has a point: the more people you filter out for irrelevant reasons, the more is left for the mediocre who can pass the filters.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#306

Post by analbumcover »

celticmusic wrote: post #236
maximente wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO recommends breast feeding until age of 2, so that's at least one thing that seems not readily changeable across sexes.

you can bottle feed breast milk.

That is associated with less diverse milk microbiota.

https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(1...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#307

Post by eecc »

mkolodny wrote: post #225
sequoia wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

Great synopsis of the article. Nothing about GP's comment relates to the article's points. In case anyone's reading these comments who hasn't read the article, it's super worth reading.

The GP comment is worth a thought though

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#308

Post by manfredo »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #262
manfredo wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This frames the decision to dedicate more time towards childcare than work as a something thrust onto women by societal expectation when women would rather work. Studies indicate that only 20% of women would prefer to work full time after having a child, with the rest preferring part time work or staying at home with the children. Furthermore, 70% of women with children that are currently working full time responded…

I suspect given an economic choice , many men would prefer not to work full time either. For some reason men don't get asked whether or not this is true. It's simply assumed that men will dedicate their lives to work because it's the only way to pay for a family.

You don't need to suspect, fathers were polled as well. 72% preferred work full time, 12% part time, and 16% not working.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#310

Post by theFeller00 »

naiveprogrammer wrote: post #192
detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

There is certainly something to be said about the way stay-at-home mothers are perceived by many in our society. They provide one of the most valuable contributions to society and should be praised. The issue is: many females take this issue at a personal level. Being a stay-at-home mom is a choice and most people don't look down on women who choose a different path. Also, some women can't simply cope with the fact t…

With such a large percent of this generation destined to be childless you don't think that conversation is coming? I'd bet on it once more start to realize the reality of their decision. Men or women, really.
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