An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#271

Post by Misdicorl » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

Academic careers in STEM require almost exclusive focus on your career for the first two decades of pursuit. This is simply because that is what the competition does.

My anecdata suggests women are less willing to allow a single aspect of their lives to entirely dominate over all others. Child bearing happens to be one of the bigger alternative endeavors, but it's not the only one.

Supporting women (and men!) who want to pursue an academic career in STEM while raising a family is a laudable goal. I hope it is more effective than I expect it to be.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#272

Post by tylermenezes » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about.

Many years ago an ex-girlfriend, who works in STEM academia (and is otherwise a liberal, progressive feminist), expressed concerns similar to the author about having kids. When I brought up that it wasn't written in stone that she would need to be the primary caregiver, she said she'd never even thought of the alternative!

(Anne-Marie Slaughter touched on this in a 2012 Atlantic article called "Why Women Still Can't Have It All" for anyone who's interested.)

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#273

Post by vondur » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

I can’t speak for women, but the pay for science degrees kinda sucks. I’m guessing it would make sense to leave to another field that pays better. My wife was a bio major and her first real job was selling HPLC columns. She ended up not liking sales so pivoted into teaching where the pay is decent.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#274

Post by codingmess » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #250

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

If a full time caregiver is needed at home, dads can step up as well. After being laid off shortly after we had our first kid, I decided to give my wife a chance to get back into her career while I stayed at home until the kid was ready for daycare. There is no reason to put all this burden on moms, dads have an equal part in this either way.

It is not a burden, it is a privilege. For dads to step up, as feminists demand, mothers would have to give up that privilege.

And if you believe the feminist narrative that it is dads forcing mothers to take care of the kids, consider that most women chose their jobs and the expected salary long before they meet the future father of their kids. Man choose careers that pay less, so the fathers end up having to earn the money. Them staying at home would simply mean less money for the family, often not enough money.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#275

Post by skybrian » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

benibela wrote: post #217

Barrin92 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia The first thing I thought as well. When you read all these horror stories about burned out phd students, why is anyone doing this? If a woman in STEM wants to combine family and work (or a man or anyone else really) there are many jobs in the industry that are actually relatively 9-5, and pay really well. I don't un…

I am in academia, because I do not want to work in an office. I do not want to leave my apartment before 11am Did not work out, since I now have an office, but at least I can show up at 2pm without being fired.

A lot of jobs in the software industry have flexible hours.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#276

Post by tmcb » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #247

sequoia wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

This is not a sufficient explanation. There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding. There must be something else - the nature of work (more people, less machines), the atmosphere (less bro, more professional), the pay (STEM careers plateau quickly)...

I don’t have any compelling evidence at hand, but professionals on STEM fields usually seem compelled to engage on career-related activities off their work hours, which is pretty much impossible during childbearing years.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#277

Post by chongli » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #236

maximente wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO recommends breast feeding until age of 2, so that's at least one thing that seems not readily changeable across sexes.

you can bottle feed breast milk.

But that means the mother needs time and a discreet place to pump at work. If it’s a job where she’s on her feet all day, that may not be possible.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#278

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #187

WalterBright wrote: post #150

Before modern times, the grandparents fulfilled much of the role of watching the kids while the moms worked. In fact, some have posited that this is why humans live long enough to be grandparents - it's an evolutionary advantage. But in modern society, we tend to cast off our grandparents.

Not necessarily cast off, but we’re so mobile now that we move too far away from our grandparents to be able to lean on them for childcare (my wife’s parents live in a different country…)

After my mom passed, my dad decided to move to Seattle, which turned out great for both of us. I greatly enjoyed having the old man around.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#279

Post by ThrustVectoring » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #200

One tactical approach: a high achieving woman could prioritize finding a partner who is interested in deprioritizing his own career for the sake of supporting her and raising children. This is a strategy high achieving men have used for a long time. So, pursue men involved in "child friendly" careers. Nurses instead of doctors; teacher aides over academics; tax preparers over management consultants. Or even men who a…

The dating marketplace is two-sided; one reason why high-achieving men use this strategy is because there are a lot of women in this niche competing for high-achieving men. There aren't nearly as many men in this niche competing for high-achieving women, likely in part because there are relatively fewer high-achieving women using this strategy.

A big part of strategy in marketplaces is choosing something that has a lot of participation so that you can find enough counter-parties to make your strategy work.

There's also a biological asymmetry in terms of age and fertility. A man who is single until age 45 and then gets a lot of economic success can marry a younger woman and have children.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#280

Post by ck425 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

It's worth noting that the amount of time parents (more so mothers) spend with each child has increased vastly, with relatively little evidence to suggest much increase in attainment. Most studies show that it's quality of time, not quantity, with parents that really matters.

The evidence suggests we don't actually need to parent so much.

Personally I see absolutely nothing wrong with sending kids to day care. We should focus on high quality family time, not high quantity. Unfortunately this view isn't acceptable in the age of helicopter parents.