An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#161

Post by abathur » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #120

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #32

>> I’ve got a big scholarship, and a lot of people supporting me to give me the best shot at an academic career — a career I dearly want. But, I also want a family — maybe two or three kids Oh. Up to this point I was keeping notes with my criticism of this article, but this caused me to stop and reconsider. If I may advise the author, I understand how difficult it is to balance life decisions that seem to be at odds,…

>How is that not sexist? How is that not the sexism that's keeping women from advancing their careers in STEM academia? Why should the academy structure itself so that women who choose to put their attention into their families do not have a career impact? If academic positions are necessarily zero-sum, it seems impossible to correct for this without seriously unfair negative externalities? How is it that the biases…

Maybe it helps if I knock the particulars out of your case:

Why should structure itself ?

Do you have some clear argument for why members of an organization aren't entitled to participate in shaping it?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#162

Post by slumdev » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

> And one of the consequences of this is that I'm not confident that if I show up to interview at a startup that I'm going to exhibit the degree of 'passion' they're looking for.

This is good, though. If you faked the passion, you might wind up surrounded by lunatics who actually believe their iOS app is going to save the world.

Also, this "passion", most of the time, is just a word that has been co-opted by the owner class to mean "working nights and weekends".

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#163

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

> Heck, let’s spend 99% — $1.485 billion (in the states alone) on better support. That should put a dent in the support bill, and I’d sure pick up $15 million if I saw it lying around. Wouldn’t you?

According to PEW (https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/01/09/diversity-in-the-...) there were 17M STEM employees in 2016, so this leaves less than $1000 per employee for childcare. According to Fortune (https://fortune.com/2018/10/22/childcare-costs-per-year-us/) the average cost per child is $9K/year (probably more if you adjust for the distribution of STEM careers?). I'm guessing STEM employees have at least one child on average (some have none, others have multiple, etc), so that only covers about 1/9th of the bill. That's a dent in the bill, but I'm not sure it's enough to make even a proportional dent in the pipeline.

Note that this assumes the money finances a benefit that must be offered to all employees; if you can target the women in question, the calculus clearly changes; however, I suspect that would be difficult under current US discrimination law (IANAL).

That said, I'd rather that money go to employees where it would certainly be useful as opposed to the current programs which, as far as I can tell, is squandered (to put it nicely).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#164

Post by JDiculous » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

Great article, and the same dynamic applies to all genders. I was listening to a podcast the other day where a founder said that the most successful people he knew (eg. entrepreneurs) all had the worst family lives - multiple marriages, bad or non-existent relationships with family, etc.

Work and family is a trade-off, their is no way around it. One can live a balanced life and be moderately successful. But to be among the best, the most elite, something generally has to give.

That's not to say that we can't reform the systems to not make it as "winner-take-all", sort of like how the author suggested.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#165

Post by icandoit » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #122

icandoit wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. Consider these possibilities: 1. A best case scenario is that what you have expressed is a personal opinion that takes your genes out of the future in a Marty McFly fading away fashion as this opinion hardens. Fine. Your choice. More pie for the rest of us. 2. A worst case scenario where this opinion accumulates in the market place of ide…

> that disgust with sex is climbing in rich nations Source? People are having fewer children, but is that because they are too disgusted to have sex?

Nearly half of young women in Japan are "uninterested in sex" or "averse to sex"

- https://www.rt.com/news/377342-sexless-japanese-marriages-st... - https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/23...

I remember seeing a similar headline for German women but cannot find a source now. (I think people expect weird think from Japan so it's good practice to compare to other countries)

Maybe social media and instant communication has replaced (or dulled) some of, what used to be, our sexual appetites.

Half the world is sub-replacement-rate: "As of 2010, about 48% (3.3 billion people) of the world population lives in nations with sub-replacement fertility"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility

What statistics should I look for the document disinterest in sex?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#166

Post by thereisnospork » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

fizwhiz wrote: post #134

thereisnospork wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWE's are a tiny slice of 'STEM' and by far the most profitable. How much do you think the average phd in biology makes? maybe 30k/y till 27, then 45k/y till 30, then followed by 75-90?

I think your example of a biologist is a bit disingenuous. By 27 they've probably just wrapped up their PhD and were making a paltry stipend to work in a professor's research lab. If they're inclined to continue working for academia then it's not surprising that they won't break past 6 figures. You could just as easily pick people from different fields that are pursuing a career in academia and find that professors a…

> By 27 they've probably just wrapped up their PhD and were making a paltry stipend to work in a professor's research lab

followed by 2-4 years at a postdoc, asked for in every job application for a 'biologist II' which has an average salary of ~77k (per indeed). This is for industry, not academia.

So how am I am misrepresenting the fact that being a biologist takes over 7+ years of being grossly underpaid relative to a SWE at FAANG to wind up being a little less grossly underpaid than a SWE at FAANG?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#167

Post by watwut » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #89

clairity wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, the employer is beside the point. the implicit assumption that women's work is not valuable is still (structural) sexism. that was the point. edit: e.g., > "Choosing to take on the burden of childcare is choosing to spend less time working."

No, the employer is not beside the point. The employer pays your salary. If you do less work, you get less salary. That isn't saying their work isn't valuable, it is saying it isn't valuable to the employer . The person who values work pays for it. In this case, it is the woman herself who values the work. She is literally choosing to pay herself, in the form of a well cared for child. In the same way that when I cle…

You could have compared it to caring about elderly dad, doing volunteer work or anything else boring, unpaid but useful. Instead, you compared it to playing games which rubs people wrong.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#168

Post by rudolph9 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

I wonder how often women in STEM have children with men who earn significantly less?

I ask because my partner Is a software engineers. She plans on continuing to work and I plan on staying home with the kids.

Practically speaking it doesn’t totally make sense since I currently earn more being a few years older in the same career. It’s just what we both have wanted since we found one another and we’re willing to make the life adjustments necessary to make it happen

I can’t help wonder how often women partner with men with lower incomes. Obviously the physical toll of baring children tips the scale a little but given couple where the woman makes significantly more than her partner I would imagine the decision would be logical for her to continuing work and wonder what percentage of women leave stem in this particular subset of the group?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#169

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#170

Post by danharaj » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #59

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

Have you considered that the primary enforcer of this curtailment is not adults but infants? I mean, I took long paternity leave, I am with my daughter at night, and am with her whenever I am home. She still wants to nurse on her mothers breast when she's sick or in pain. This makes sense as not only is it comforting to her (and a childs emotional need is very real) but it is also physiologically beneficial (nursing…

How many people do you think are involved in raising the average child? Two? I had a veritable village of people raising me. I can assure you that only one of them nursed me. For some reason, though, most of them were women.

It was even more obvious before the establishment of the nuclear family that a whole bunch of people should work together to raise children because not only does it improve the outcome, it's more efficient.

I'd like to get your perspective in 18 years.