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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#121

Post by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 »

fizwhiz wrote: post #73
toufka wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an unfortunate distinction between those other professions - STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. And that 'moment' is generally delayed in STEM compared to those professions; you start generating…

> STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. These statements couldn't be further from the truth. You don't need to hang out on HN for long to figure out that FAANG SWEs comfortably make upwards of 400k in their…

What’s the median salary for STEM engineers versus medical doctors? FANG pays in the p90, but the vast majority of STEM make decent but unsurprising salaries, and that salary requires them to be in a handful of major cities.

As opposed to a physician, median salary almost double of a software engineer, and can live and work in much cheaper cities.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#122

Post by yorwba »

icandoit wrote: post #65
deyouz wrote: post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

>And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. Consider these possibilities: 1. A best case scenario is that what you have expressed is a personal opinion that takes your genes out of the future in a Marty McFly fading away fashion as this opinion hardens. Fine. Your choice. More pie for the rest of us. 2. A worst case scenario where this opinion accumulates in the market place of ide…

> that disgust with sex is climbing in rich nations

Source? People are having fewer children, but is that because they are too disgusted to have sex?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#123

Post by eej71 »

csb6 wrote: post #96
tathougies wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that the primary enforcer of this curtailment is not adults but infants? I mean, I took long paternity leave, I am with my daughter at night, and am with her whenever I am home. She still wants to nurse on her mothers breast when she's sick or in pain. This makes sense as not only is it comforting to her (and a childs emotional need is very real) but it is also physiologically beneficial (nursing…

Structural sexism is not perpetuated by infants. I mean come on. Children wanting to nurse is not the big issue; children grow up, and do not need nursing when they become toddlers. So why are women still expected to be caretakers of toddlers, middle-schoolers, and tweens? Surely, there isn’t a physiological reason. There is clearly something larger going on. In reality, men and women’s roles are arbitrary, and the s…

While its not a universal construct - it is challenging to look at the history of many cultures who arrived at a similar distribution of labor and the behavior of other mammals and not wonder if men and women aren't inherently different in some generalized way that isn't readily alterable.

For those of us on the other side of the debate, there is always this vague sense of some people are underestimating the impact of these intrinsic differences.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#124

Post by zajio1am »

untog wrote: post #98
zajio1am wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While i agree it may be a concern of a society to be stable, it does not automatically translate to necessary concern for society as a whole. Many things necessary for a society work even if society does not intervene in them. People would have children for emotional reasons even if society does not intervene. Also, if a societal stability is a goal, then having more than replacement number of children is as problema…

> People would have children for emotional reasons even if society does not intervene. Yes, but the success of those children is still a societal concern. You want some of those children to be a new generation of doctors, teachers, etc. etc... without supporting them at a young age (i.e. providing education, a welfare safety net) there's no guarantee that would ever happen, and they might end up being more of a drain…

I agree that it is reasonable for a society to support parents with child-raising to a degree (by say offering free public education and healtcare). But it is a fundamental responsibility of parents, society is here in supporting role.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#125

Post by icandoit »

zajio1am wrote: post #84
untog wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Of course it isn't. Every society needs an up and coming younger generation as the older generation stops working. That is absolutely a problem on a societal level.

While i agree it may be a concern of a society to be stable, it does not automatically translate to necessary concern for society as a whole. Many things necessary for a society work even if society does not intervene in them. People would have children for emotional reasons even if society does not intervene. Also, if a societal stability is a goal, then having more than replacement number of children is as problema…

>People would have children for emotional reasons even if society does not intervene.

What if that isn't true though?

Fertility is universally falling in rich countries.

Could you give me a number of births-per-woman that would motivate your concern? I think 1 birth per woman is a reasonable number for national concern. South Korea is already at 1.0.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/KOR/south-korea/fertil...

Without a future generation long term concerns evaporate from concern. Maybe this has already happened in some peoples minds with regard to national debt, and the long-term sustainability of social security.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#126

Post by danharaj »

SkyBelow wrote: post #41
danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

>Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. Great. But my personal experience is that this notion seems to vanish as soon as we look at things like rates of workplace deaths, life expectancy, hours worked, imprisonment, or numerous other areas. And even if they don't vanish, the level of attention devoted seems to be remarkably different. Would the way we structure society in regar…

This might surprise you but a lot of feminists are also strongly in favor of workers' rights and prison abolition. For example, bell hooks and Angela Davis.

I have never met people more passionately invested in the wellbeing of men than the feminists I read and live with. It is a shame to me that decades of propaganda have buried those voices and raised the voices of those who insist that feminism is a zero sum game.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#127

Post by deyouz »

trynewideas wrote: post #56

This is a good model for why women capable of or wanting to have children leave but won't do much to explain anything to women aren't capable of having children, or who don't want children, and still can't break past middle management into product/exec/C-suite roles over younger, less qualified men.

This! Not all women want children/can have children/are straight.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#128

Post by snarf21 »

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

It isn't a bad idea but really you are just talking about the cost of daycare services. Some mothers and fathers stay home because they want time with their kids at a very young age. They want to be able to go to every show and tell. Most people who are able to have a stay at home parent is because the other partner makes enough so the don't need to work. You suggestion just makes work possible for a subset that don't work because sending four kids to daycare costs more than they could make. There are other issues for school age kids where they need care close to their school district (for busing) not necessarily where they work.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#129

Post by ghaff »

hguant wrote: post #93
tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

>My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Every now and then I get an overwhelming sense of guilt when I talk to/think about my friends who are engaged in academia or pursuing advanced degrees (I'm 28, for reference). The crazy workloads they have, the insane restrictions on how they can do their jobs, and the cut-throat n…

From what I can see, tenured professor at an elite school is a pretty good gig. But it's a really tough gig to land, may not pay very well compared to private industry (assuming it's in a well-compensated field), and may force their partner to live somewhere the other employment opportunities aren't great because your own job mobility is likely pretty limited.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#130

Post by stale2002 »

__jal wrote: post #81
tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

> Academics should [...] vot[e] with their feet. You do see the problem here, don't you?

I don't see a problem with that, no.

It would result in more people going into successful careers in industry.

That's a good thing.

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