An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#91

Post by darawk » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #83

darawk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think this claim holds up to scrutiny. Yes, there are men out there whose careers are negatively impacted by starting a family, but by and large the expectation is a man continues working while a woman drops everything. That's part of the reason why family leave for men is less common. That isn't what I said though. Obviously men who start a family but don't do the childcare won't be negatively impacted. I'…

You said that they were equally negatively impacted though and I brought up an example of where that is clearly not the case. Which is parental leave, done in a way as to discourage men from taking time off to take care of a newborn while also pressuring women to be the primary caregivers. That's my entire point. They're not equally impacted because there are larger societal pressures designed to punish women who wan…

> You said that they were equally negatively impacted though and I brought up an example of where that is clearly not the case. Which is parental leave, done in a way as to discourage men from taking time off to take care of a newborn while also pressuring women to be the primary caregivers.

Read what I said more carefully. I didn't say all men are equally negatively impacted. I said the men who choose to take on the burden of childcare are equally negatively impacted.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#92

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#93

Post by hguant » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

>My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated.

Every now and then I get an overwhelming sense of guilt when I talk to/think about my friends who are engaged in academia or pursuing advanced degrees (I'm 28, for reference).

The crazy workloads they have, the insane restrictions on how they can do their jobs, and the cut-throat nature of the industry means that they're working so much harder than I am, and are either doing their part to advance the grand sum of human knowledge, or are training to literally save peoples lives...and I'm sitting here, a college drop out, getting paid _way_ more than they're making, in an industry where I will never have any fears about job security, playing with networking equipment and writing about it.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#94

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #91

fzeroracer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said that they were equally negatively impacted though and I brought up an example of where that is clearly not the case. Which is parental leave, done in a way as to discourage men from taking time off to take care of a newborn while also pressuring women to be the primary caregivers. That's my entire point. They're not equally impacted because there are larger societal pressures designed to punish women who wan…

> You said that they were equally negatively impacted though and I brought up an example of where that is clearly not the case. Which is parental leave, done in a way as to discourage men from taking time off to take care of a newborn while also pressuring women to be the primary caregivers. Read what I said more carefully. I didn't say all men are equally negatively impacted. I said the men who choose to take on the…

> Read what I said more carefully. I didn't say all men are equally negatively impacted. I said the men who choose to take on the burden of childcare are equally negatively impacted.

And I think you need to reread my argument, which is specifically talking about those men who do take on the burden of childcare against the societal pressure to do otherwise. I think it would do you well to reread my argument from the top because it's starting to seem like you're arguing against something entirely different than what I'm saying.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#95

Post by icandoit » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

It may have also been the case, that before industrialization, metal smelting, and anything-faster-than-walking the world was inherently safe.

Daycare only become necessary once transportation, tools that could cut, and exposed toxins became abundant.

Imagine a world were all parents let their children roam the streets from dawn til dinner, child-right-of-way, and any harm befalling a child was universally met with public outcry against the adult responsible for creating unsafe conditions. (If you left a can of gas unlocked and Jimmy burns thing down, you are responsible, not Jimmy or Jimmys parents. Rational precautions etc.)

Kids would be barred from factories sure, highways and other necessarily dangerous places could be fenced off. Contrast this with our blame-the-parents instincts, now.

Can we collectively consider taking a step in that direction?

When our workplaces have a spot for our cars and not our children, should be surprised that car ownership climbs and fertility falls?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#96

Post by csb6 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #59

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

Have you considered that the primary enforcer of this curtailment is not adults but infants? I mean, I took long paternity leave, I am with my daughter at night, and am with her whenever I am home. She still wants to nurse on her mothers breast when she's sick or in pain. This makes sense as not only is it comforting to her (and a childs emotional need is very real) but it is also physiologically beneficial (nursing…

Structural sexism is not perpetuated by infants. I mean come on. Children wanting to nurse is not the big issue; children grow up, and do not need nursing when they become toddlers. So why are women still expected to be caretakers of toddlers, middle-schoolers, and tweens? Surely, there isn’t a physiological reason. There is clearly something larger going on.

In reality, men and women’s roles are arbitrary, and the sexist structures present today are not the result of children asking for it. You are overestimating the intrinsic qualities of human social and family interactions, which are not as set in stone as you claim. Even the concept of the nuclear family - with one possible nurse and mother figure - isn’t a universal construct of human societies.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#97

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:29 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #83

darawk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think this claim holds up to scrutiny. Yes, there are men out there whose careers are negatively impacted by starting a family, but by and large the expectation is a man continues working while a woman drops everything. That's part of the reason why family leave for men is less common. That isn't what I said though. Obviously men who start a family but don't do the childcare won't be negatively impacted. I'…

You said that they were equally negatively impacted though and I brought up an example of where that is clearly not the case. Which is parental leave, done in a way as to discourage men from taking time off to take care of a newborn while also pressuring women to be the primary caregivers. That's my entire point. They're not equally impacted because there are larger societal pressures designed to punish women who wan…

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#98

Post by untog » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:29 PM UTC

zajio1am wrote: post #84

untog wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Of course it isn't. Every society needs an up and coming younger generation as the older generation stops working. That is absolutely a problem on a societal level.

While i agree it may be a concern of a society to be stable, it does not automatically translate to necessary concern for society as a whole. Many things necessary for a society work even if society does not intervene in them. People would have children for emotional reasons even if society does not intervene. Also, if a societal stability is a goal, then having more than replacement number of children is as problema…

> People would have children for emotional reasons even if society does not intervene.

Yes, but the success of those children is still a societal concern. You want some of those children to be a new generation of doctors, teachers, etc. etc... without supporting them at a young age (i.e. providing education, a welfare safety net) there's no guarantee that would ever happen, and they might end up being more of a drain on society than a productive member.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#99

Post by zajio1am » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:29 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #44

darawk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. You seem to be making a fairly subtle point here that I think others might be missing. Which is not that women choosing to take on the burden of childcare represents sexism (which is an argument some people make), but rather that the fact that their making this choice impinges upon their personal economic future is se…

to compare it to playing video games all day is (unwittingly?) falling prey to the very systemic sexism you're trying to fathom--that "women's work" such as childcare is not "work"--that it's economically unproductive and should be "free".

> that "women's work" such as childcare is not "work"--that it's economically unproductive and should be "free".

Obviously contractual childcare is work.

Seems to me more similar to voluneer open-source development. It may be productive and useful for others, but that does not entitle anyone for compensation.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#100

Post by brailsafe » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:29 PM UTC

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

I worked for a company that had daycare as a benefit, but were much more reluctant to flex in their more ingrained ideas of work schedule. I guess you could say they were more conservative overall, despite how much money they wasted in make-work. Seemed to more or less be a consequence of having employees with kods before they moved to a big new office.