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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#32>> I’ve got a big scholarship, and a lot of people supporting me to give me the
best shot at an academic career — a career I dearly want. But, I also want a
family — maybe two or three kids
Oh.
Up to this point I was keeping notes with my criticism of this article, but this caused me to stop and reconsider.
If I may advise the author, I understand how difficult it is to balance life decisions that seem to be at odds, but trying to deny the very reason why those life decisions are hard to combine will not make the choice any easier.
It is stupid and sexist that you have to think of pursuing a PhD and having two or three kids as an either/or option, when the (probably) man you'll want to start a family with will not have to do that, even if they are also a PhD in STEM.
This is part and parcel of the sexism that people complain about. It's not just inappropriate behaviour by senior male academics. There is no reason why a woman must put her career on hold to start a family when a man in the same career does not need to. There is no reason why women are expected to be the ones most concerned with the business of having and raising children when men are expected to be the most concerned with advancing their careers. How is that not sexist? How is that not the sexism that's keeping women from advancing their careers in STEM academia?
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#33The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…
> Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society.
What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Each pair should decide how they want to split responsibilities of raising a child before its conception, based on their preferences, and society should not force them to any model.
Also, it seems to me that society already prioritize child-raising too much compared to other non-work activities. If people would leave STEM/some other field due to work-life balance for some other personal goals than child-raising (say part-time working in a non-profit), would anyone care?
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#34Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig.
I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that allows companies to offer daycare as a benefit, or a Wonderschool-like daycare for working parents. Even an improved work from home policy for new parents would go a long way to plugging the talent "leak" that's prevalent right now.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#35The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…
> Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Each pair should decide how they want to split responsibilities of raising a child before its conception, based on their preferences, and society should not force them to any model. Also, it seems…
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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#36The truth is men are more mathematically inclined. Why we as a society make up all sorts of fantasies is beyond me
That is clearly not the only reason, and likely isn't even a major factor in and of itself. Yes, we might expect to see slightly more men in general in math heavy fields, but that women tend to drop out as they approach not heavier math, but more time consuming/worse work/life balance situations (management) suggests the issue isn't just "men are more mathematically inclined".
Like any complex phenomenon applying to a multitude of people there are several effects happening in different proportion at the same time.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#37I find this a bit pointless- Scott Aaronson has his views that are not the views of a sizeable majority of women in STEM, who find that their career progression is hindered by institutionalised sexism. At some point Aaronson finds or receives a dissenting opinion from a woman in STEM. He publishes it, with a preface suggesting that _this_ is the _real_ view of a majority of women in STEM (the opinion "dovetails with…
The original essay linked combats the institutional sexism claim with data that suggests the number of women who claim to have experiences sexism is on par with non-STEM career choices, but the exit from STEM vastly exceeds that of other fields.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#38Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…
Historically, the extended family and neighbors were contributing to raising children. For a couple that doesn't have family close by and lives in a city, parenthood is at least a part-time job.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. As someone who has adopted 3 children, I assure you that the biological route is way easier and cheaper. It's not like rescuing a dog from the pound...
Except for birth and family planning related complications that are minimized in exactly the time frame where career effects tend to compound (or so the article seems to claim)
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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#40Thanks, Karen Morenz, for providing a unified, panoramic view of the ways that the standard academic career progression short-changes many female scientists, even if each step along the way seems to make sense. It's worth taking a look at three other professions with long, high-intensity pathways from apprentice to master --all of which have been wrestling with the same challenges. They are management consulting, law…
I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue.
It’s a complicated issue, it needs to be tackled on many fronts. As men in the field we should advocate for those things Karen recommends, namely flexible hours, obscenely convenient high quality childcare, and other supports to make a career not the death of family.
Even if you disagree that there’s a problem here (and I think you’re wrong) how would these changes cause harm? Wouldn’t it just be a better world if people were less stressed by these things?