The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview • Hacker News Board

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#461

Post by Nullabillity » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 12:53 PM UTC

kunglao wrote: post #460

Nullabillity wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually tried to use Visual Studio? It's an unusable piece of crap. The navigation is nearly unusable. Don't focus the project navigation on a tree browser if you're not going to integrate it into the rest of the navigation workflow. NuGet regularly fails silently to restore packages. It uses a virtual filesystem that usually maps 1:1 to the actual project folder.. except files created outside of VS are com…

1. Navigation: subjective so gonna let that slide. 2. Downright bullshit. You are starting to whine. 3. Subjective but far from something that makes the IDE a "piece of crap" 4. You are starying to sound like you are in the wrong industry. 5. No. Change the .csproj and drop the AssemblyInfo.cs usually work for something that can actually be migrated. If you expect any project that targeted Windows to just migrate to…

> 1. Navigation: subjective so gonna let that slide.

If you're going to pick a mode of navigation then at least commit to it. It's subjective whether or not any particular choice is good. The quality of the implementation, not so much.

> 2. Downright bullshit. You are starting to whine.

Sorry for wanting a package manager to... manage packages, I guess.

Or maybe it's configured wrong? I guess it's too much to expect two Microsoft tools to work well together..

> 3. Subjective but far from something that makes the IDE a "piece of crap"

Do you never edit your project files from outside the IDE?

> 4. You are starying to sound like you are in the wrong industry.

Compare a typical SBT build definition[0] or Cargo.toml[1] to a typical VS solution[2] or project[3]. Which would you feel the most confident about when modifying by hand?

(Hint: For me, it's definitely not the one that is full of autogenerated cartesian products.)

> 5. No. Change the .csproj and drop the AssemblyInfo.cs usually work for something that can actually be migrated.

So why couldn't Microsoft include a tool for that migration? That seems like table stakes for such a migration project. We're not exactly talking about 2to3[4] or rustfix[5] here...

> If you expect any project that targeted Windows to just migrate to cross platform using a NNF you are an idiot.

Amazing how Microsoft are completely unable to even get close to what the Wine and Mono people did years ago.

> At the very least you could have given an example of an IDE that you consider is better. You were just talking out of your arse.

Throw a dart and you'll find something. If you want the out-of-the-box live-in-your-IDE experience then JetBrains' stuff is miles better than VS. Personally I moved on to Spacemacs[6] after a few years each of VS and IntelliJ.

[0]: https://gitlab.com/teozkr/what-should-i-sing/blob/master/bui...

[1]: https://gitlab.com/teozkr/scankiosk/blob/master/scankiosk-ui...

[2]: https://github.com/getsentry/raven-csharp/blob/develop/src/S...

[3]: https://github.com/getsentry/raven-csharp/blob/develop/src/a...

[4]: https://docs.python.org/3.8/library/2to3.html

[5]: https://github.com/rust-lang/rustfix

[6]: https://www.spacemacs.org/

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#462

Post by tatersolid » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:58 PM UTC

scanr wrote: post #264

WorldMaker wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully Microsoft will make edge the default browser at some point. If you mean over IE11, that's probably a (dumb, unhealthy) Group Policy decision of your Enterprise as Edge has been the default browser in Windows 10 since launch. If you mean Edgmium (New Edge) over Edge Classic, it already replaces Edge Classic (entirely) when you install it, and there's a slow rollout through Windows Update already happening,…

Dang it. It probably is our group policy. I suspect that we have a lot of users with similar policies as we over index for ie11 in our stats too.

At $dayjob we do SaaS for the US banking industry. We see 65% IE11 and 70% Win 7 in our stats as of 2020-01-16.

We even see a small percentage of XP and IE8 (which we haven’t supported since MS dropped support.) might just be UA spoofing to support some crazy old internal app at a bank.

Makes your money feel safe, eh?

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#463

Post by tsimionescu » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

zapzupnz wrote: post #398

tsimionescu wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is an extremely simple reason: because these tools are installed for all users, not just your own. Doing it any other way would be wasteful on an actual multi-user machine. But some tools do support it - both Chrome and Firefox can be installed without admin privileges. There is also the fact that Office and many other products rely on demons starting at boot time, which can only be installed with admin r…

> because these tools are installed for all users So all they should require is to be dragged into the /Applications folder (or /System/Applications in Catalina). That's it. That's how a macOS app should be installed. That should be the end of the process unless it needs to install kernel extensions (and even then, from Catalina onwards, such extensions should become userland extensions).

But how could a regular user be allowed to install something for other users? That would be a breach of security.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#464

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #249

crazygringo wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, that bugs the hell out of me too. Why do I need to give Adobe admin rights to install Photoshop? Why do I need to give Microsoft the same to install Word? And now for a web browser? If I'm installing something low-level like a window manager or a keyboard shortcut tool, I get it . But for a normal mainstream flagship consumer application, what on earth do they need admin privileges for?! I hate the fact I…

Well, there is an extremely simple reason: because these tools are installed for all users, not just your own. Doing it any other way would be wasteful on an actual multi-user machine. But some tools do support it - both Chrome and Firefox can be installed without admin privileges. There is also the fact that Office and many other products rely on demons starting at boot time, which can only be installed with admin r…

> Well, there is an extremely simple reason: because these tools are installed for all users, not just your own. Doing it any other way would be wasteful on an actual multi-user machine.

It wouldn't be wasteful if I didn't want to install it for the other users, which I might not.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#465

Post by I_AM_A_SMURF » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 3:43 PM UTC

tim-- wrote: post #353

I_AM_A_SMURF wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked on both, it's no comparison. Firefox builds in about 40min on my macbook pro, Chromium takes like 4 hours?

I can't even get Chromium to build on my MacBook Pro, so there's that. (15-inch, 2018, 16GB RAM) What magic are you using to be able to build Chromium?

Limiting the threads as somebody elses said. For chromium no one really builds it on a laptop, everyone in my team used a build server or a 32 core monster desktop.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#466

Post by tracker1 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #450

tracker1 wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TypeScript does NOT shim async functions[1] for you, or give you fetch-api[2]? AFAIK, if you want that functionality, you still need babel and the fills/transforms to support async in browsers without it are freakishly huge payloads. That doesn't count dynamic imports and a number of other features that TypeScript doesn't support. I'd rather not support a dead browser, that's been dead for years now, that has clear r…

TypeScript does shim async functions, you just need to supply your own `Promise ` polyfill ( https://mariusschulz.com/blog/compiling-async-await-to-es3-e... ). `fetch` also works fine with a third-party polyfill. Combined, that's about 30KiB extra compared to pure ES6 (before GZip).

Thank you for pointing this out... I just know I've come across quite a few features of EScurrent/next that weren't supported in typescript and found the experience a bit irritating to do both babel and ts (and webpack).

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#467

Post by forgot-my-pw » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

igravious wrote: post #391

BrendanEich wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We started with Gecko in 2015, but it lost on many dimensions in a head to head comparison enumerating gaps vs. Chrome. DRM is just one example. We don't like DRM, but users want Netflix to work, and Google makes WideVine free-as-in-beer; whereas at the time, Mozilla had an Adobe deal that did not extend to non-Firefox Gecko embeddings. So we switched to chromium/Blink in late 2015. Much later, when I visited Apple i…

Hey, thanks for everything you've done for open source and open platforms. The reason you gave here for Brave not choosing Gecko (or WebKit) is interesting – but given Microsoft's deep pockets and tech know-how those reasons don't apply to them. I think this is a strategic blunder on Microsoft's part and I say this as a Linux user. :) Microsoft has now warmly embraced Linux – and I think they could have chosen this t…

Surely Microsoft has done their homework: researched everything and weigh the pros & cons. This is a big thing and the next step in their browser strategy. We can only guess their reasons, but clearly in their eyes, Chromium codebase is the better choice.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#468

Post by collinmanderson » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:57 AM UTC

BrendanEich wrote: post #447

collinmanderson wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it sounds roughly one month of thinking and researching, then 10 days of coding?

That's what I wrote, yeah. With constraints going from "Come do Scheme!" to "make it look like Java" and even "feel like Java" because interop, via what we hoped would come, and did in Netscape 3, as a JS/Java bridge called LiveConnect. The Belgium Post built a whole web app+service architecture on LiveConnect. Think of LiveConnect as "Active Scripting" on MS's platform, which enabled Java components to be developed…

Thanks!

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#469

Post by bzbarsky » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #268

bzbarsky wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having compiled both: it's not. On the same hardware, Firefox takes ~4x less time to compile than Chromium for me...

Which platform were you compiling on, and when? It's been some years now, but Chromium used to build with MSVC on Windows.

Sometime in the last 6 months, on Mac and Linux both.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#470

Post by xp84 » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:45 AM UTC

tracker1 wrote: post #281

duxup wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a noob web dev working in a small shop that sells a niche SaaS product. We had a customer push us to support Edge. The dev team (3 dudes) just looked at eachother and laid down the "No, Firefox or Chrome...". It's just so much pressure to dance around the "this one does this, that one doesn't" and generally we rarely run into any Firefox and Chrome issues. Edge, just not worth it for a small team. I'm glad we pro…

Been tacitly supporting Edge myself, but drew a hard line at IE (even 11) for current projects. Without async functions, promises etc, it's just too much extra boilerplate, a separate build setup and a huge payload just to support IE11, let alone older. I'll be glad if/when Edge (blink) is deployed with a windows update.. the sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Just out of curiosity, why not use a conditional polyfill using nomodule rather than outright breaking on something like IE11? Because we use nomodule, the script tag will be ignored by modern browsers, while IE will fetch the polyfill. polyfill.io serves this request, and we have it include all the polyfills we require (for our use case, we just request the default plus es2015-16-17-18, plus fetch).

The beauty of the approach is that the big pollyfill payloads are only borne by the users who choose (or likely are forced by employers) to use those browser versions.