Actix project postmortem • Hacker News Board

Re: Actix project postmortem

#31

Post by logophobia » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:17 PM UTC

teddyuk wrote: post #14

ealexhudson wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the maintainer writes a lot of code using rust's "unsafe" keyword, and regularly gets issues raised about this (and versioning, and some other bits). This last issue, which included a patch, has pushed them over the edge after it descended into disagreement. Net/net they were repeatedly asked to change coding style, didn't want to, and have decided it's better to just avoid the arguments by not publishing…

The maintainer can choose whatever style they damn well please, if you don't like it don't use it. What is hard about this?

It's not coding style, it's refusing to investigate use-after-free vulnerabilities in code because it's "boring". Noone should care if a maintainer uses tabs or spaces, or has weird variable naming, but if "coding-style" leads to security issues (due to hand-rolling unsafe memory-primitives), then it is an actual issue, especially if it's for a popular web-framework.

Don't like it, don't use it doesn't really apply to security vulnerabilities in such major packages.

Flaming and personal attacks are not the solution to this stuff, but this drama feels somewhat self-inflicted.

Re: Actix project postmortem

#32

Post by j-pb » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:17 PM UTC

shirshak55 wrote: post #15

tsukurimashou wrote: post #11

"Ok... So that was unprofessional. If you don't want to maintain a project anymore, you give it to someone else and link to that repo in your README. This just screwed me over big time." https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/1#issuecomment-575... These kind of entitled attitude is probably exactly why the guy just removed everything. More details / discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/epszt7/ac…

Now due to that comment actix maintainer has disabled issue too. I don't know why people show such attitude as if they are paying him to do opensource.

In open source you give and take. The actix author almost certainly (unless they deploy their own kernel) has profited immensely from other peoples work. This is because as a community we have realized that we don't sell libraries, we sell stuff build with them, so we all win when we share.

It is your choice to use open source software without open sourcing your own work or without contributing.

But by engaging in open source you engage in a social contract, you become part of a community whose goal it is to foster collaboration and help one another, other people start to rely on you, just as you rely on their libraries, compilers, and kernels.

The author choose to break that social contract out of spite. He created a scenario where people choose to rely on him, when they could have relied on other works, and then screwed them over majorly.

Re: Actix project postmortem

#33

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

tsukurimashou wrote: post #11

"Ok... So that was unprofessional. If you don't want to maintain a project anymore, you give it to someone else and link to that repo in your README. This just screwed me over big time." https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/1#issuecomment-575... These kind of entitled attitude is probably exactly why the guy just removed everything. More details / discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/epszt7/ac…

[deleted]

Re: Actix project postmortem

#34

Post by endothrowho333 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

tsukurimashou wrote: post #11

"Ok... So that was unprofessional. If you don't want to maintain a project anymore, you give it to someone else and link to that repo in your README. This just screwed me over big time." https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/1#issuecomment-575... These kind of entitled attitude is probably exactly why the guy just removed everything. More details / discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/epszt7/ac…

Is it entitled? Most would agree, "very" (but that's not my concern nor judgement to make)

Did the maintainer screw over people that were using Actix? Very likely.

I sympathize with both sides here. I've been the unthanked, punching bag contributor on a few notable projects, and I've been a user of software whose leadership got into drama and squabbles, that ultimately fucked me over.

There were times that I pulled certain projects and essays, that had greatly helped people, and taken my ball home because I was fed up with the people I was catering to. There is no correct answer here, dealing with people and their emotions, but there is a way for both sides to handle things without contributing negatively to other's lives.

Re: Actix project postmortem

#35

Post by stavros » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

Whatever drawbacks Actix may have had, this entitlement has gone too far. There is no defensible reason to tell someone "never write Rust again" because you don't like the code they're making available to you. We need something to remind us that we should be civil and grateful for FOSS contributions.

I recently saw a talk by Atwood about good discourse and how you should remind people of your values before they write their comment, which I think applies here. I'm going to make a single-page website reminding people that FOSS maintainers are volunteers performing a service to everyone else, and that we should keep that in mind.

If nothing else, it'll be an easy think to link people to in my issues sometimes.

EDIT: It's going to go up on https://www.osscoc.com/

Re: Actix project postmortem

#36

Post by thrownaway954 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

I use to do a TON of open source back in the day. i quit cause of the same reason, people suck and feel they are entitled.

i couldn't count how many times someone would yell, kick and scream about an issue they were having and demand that i fix it right away (ain't gonna happen dude). i finally got to the point where i told people that i would only participate in pull requests and nothing else. you could still file issues, but i wasn't gonna even look at them. if you wanted something fixed, open a pull request and i will help you fix it but i'm not wasting my time with an issue that i didn't personally have an investment in. was i being a jerk for doing that? maybe, but my own personal serenity was worth more to me than pleasing you.

i think every open source author starts out with this fire in their heart to make the software world a better place for everyone only to get beaten down by every moron out there. when you are getting paid to do something, you put up with the idiots in your life (how many of us are still at the job that pays well, but HATE the people there?), but when you are doing it on your own time and not being compensated for it, what's the point?

i applaud this dude for doing what he did. i hope his actions has put the people using his project in a position of panic to the point where they reflect on how they treat people and participate in the open source community. pain is the only way we learn and change things about ourselves. i hope the people who caused the author to quit open source change the way they treat people in the future.

Re: Actix project postmortem

#37

Post by j-pb » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

tsukurimashou wrote: post #11

"Ok... So that was unprofessional. If you don't want to maintain a project anymore, you give it to someone else and link to that repo in your README. This just screwed me over big time." https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/1#issuecomment-575... These kind of entitled attitude is probably exactly why the guy just removed everything. More details / discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/epszt7/ac…

In open source you give and take. The actix author almost certainly (unless they deploy their own kernel) has profited immensely from other peoples work. This is because as a community we have realized that we don't sell libraries, we sell stuff build with them, so we all win when we share. It is your choice to use open source software without open sourcing your own work or without contributing. But by engaging in open source you engage in a social contract, you become part of a community whose goal it is to foster collaboration and help one another, other people start to rely on you, just as you rely on their libraries, compilers, and kernels. The author choose to break that social contract out of spite. He created a scenario where people choose to rely on him, when they could have relied on other works, and then screwed them over majorly.

Re: Actix project postmortem

#38

Post by zzzcpan » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

dsego wrote: post #18

teddyuk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maintainer can choose whatever style they damn well please, if you don't like it don't use it. What is hard about this?

Is it a community run project or not? The website seems to imply that the community is welcome to participate: "We're a welcoming community so don't be afraid to engage."

There is no such thing as a community run project. But either way, people told the author to literally stop writing Rust code because he doesn't respect semver. This is not a participation, this is just hate.

Re: Actix project postmortem

#39

Post by tannhaeuser » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #23

tsukurimashou wrote: post #11

"Ok... So that was unprofessional. If you don't want to maintain a project anymore, you give it to someone else and link to that repo in your README. This just screwed me over big time." https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/1#issuecomment-575... These kind of entitled attitude is probably exactly why the guy just removed everything. More details / discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/epszt7/ac…

> These kind of entitled attitude If you offer code to the public – and present it as an active, dependable project – professional behavior is exactly what you implicitly promise and signed up for . If you can’t offer that (at any time, and for any reason), then you should immediately make that clear, front-and-center, to any current and future users. It isn’t “entitlement” on part of the users – the users are making…

Strongly disagree. For me, what's implicit is that any software, commercial or F/OSS, can be abandoned at any time - because that's just the way it is. A remedy would be to use software coded to a specification with mulitple implementations such that in case a project folds, you might be able to switch over to a different implementation. The Java EE ecosystem used to be like that until around 2012 or so.

Re: Actix project postmortem

#40

Post by onli » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

buzzkillington wrote: post #21

dsego wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's easy to get confused when you look at the professional looking website with a well crafted logo, a promo list of features and a copyright notice from the "The Actix Team". The community page even says "We're a welcoming community so don't be afraid to engage.". Ouch!

The easy way to tell is to remember if you're paying them or not.

That's not true at all. You can pay for amateur bullshit, and you can get professional software and support for free (and free as in freedom).