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What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

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Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#301

Post by jakobegger »

xapata wrote: post #134
axaxs wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say pizza delivery is far more lucrative. At least, it was when I was a teen.

It was until my $1k car repair.

Ha, same here. I thought my catering side job was pretty sweet (7€ an hour!) until I once scratched someones car on the way to work and it cost me 350€, which was more than I had earned in that job.

I've since realised that cars are very expensive and you should probably not take a job that requires a lot of driving around in your own car if you don't get reimbursed for it.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#302

Post by eptcyka »

Reedx wrote: post #255
sschueller wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can, stop using and supporting these predatory companies. Never use Uber, Lyft, Doordash, Uber Eats, AirBnB etc. No exception irregardless how easy or cheap it may be. It's a small sacrifice but can and will make a difference. Using these services to me is like asking a waiter to pay for part of my meal. When it comes around to paying the bill are you able to face someone and ask them to pay for part of what they…

You don't know what the waiter's situation is, so how can we presume to know better than they do? Are you sure the people who are choosing to work for these services would agree? Secondly, you have the option of giving a nice tip. I suspect they'd prefer that over not renting their Airbnb or whatever service they're offering.

Yeah, but every time you use AirBnB, a would be first-time homeowner cries to his sleep.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#303

Post by frobozz »

ramraj07 wrote: post #203
gvjddbnvdrbv wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people still want food cooked and delivered and to use taxis. If the non financially viable companies did not exist then financially viable ones would.

Not completely. I remember life before Uber and seamless. I'd just stay home and eat ramen (this is in Dallas and I didn't have a car). These businesses did genuinely create businesses and also changed lives for many by the service. That's not an excuse for such exploitative behavior of course.

I remember life before Uber and I'd never heard of Seamless, until your comment. These businesses genuinely just used VC funding and exploitative contracts to undercut perfectly viable existing services.

Before Uber, I'd take public transport, phone for a minicab or walk to their office to get one. (and I still do)

Before Deliveroo, I'd call the local takeaway and get them to deliver, or walk there and collect it myself. (and I still do).

You can argue that they have improved the lives of people who find it hard to use the phone, However, that was already solved for food delivery before these new delivery services came along and I would be surprised if there weren't minicab firms that accepted SMS or web bookings.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#304

Post by consp »

hurricanetc wrote: post #298
frobozz wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is the service workers themselves who prefer working for tips. I'm sure they'd prefer a sensible wage + tips, over a sub-minimum wage supplemented by tips.

I’m sure most people would prefer more money. But if service workers were paid “normal” wages people wouldn’t feel guilted into tipping. Minimum wage in NYC is $15/hour and $10/hour for food service workers. Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips. But are the employees actually earning more? I doubt it.

You are already naming the problem here:

> Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips.

Service bad? -> complain to employer, employer punishes employee

Service OK? -> employer pays employee for work done

Service good? -> employer pays employee for work done and customer pays employee for good work (and employee shares it with all the other employees who are in the chain of service).

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#305

Post by taneq »

chii wrote: post #115
gpm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really simplistic view: Before the hour of work I had $10003 of vehicle, $0 in my pocket, and an hour of time. After the hour of work I had $10000 of vehicle, and $3 in my pocket. With the assumption that you are going to eventually pay that $3 back into your vehicle, by paying for repairs or buying a new one, you basically just "borrowed" money from your vehicle.

> you basically just "borrowed" money from your vehicle. so wouldn't it then make more sense to just sell the vehicle for $10003, then place that money in an interest earning asset like a bond, rather than "borrow" from the value of the vehicle?

You think that people who work for Uber Eats are the kind of people who own their cars outright?

It’s true, though, that you could look at it as a draw-down on a car loan.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#306

Post by didibus »

I'm still confused why would people keep working for DoorDash? No other jobs around? Would they just be unemployed if DoorDash closed down? Is it that DoorDash actually tricks people into working for them with hope of a higher wage which never comes?

I'm against the practices they put in place, but am more leaning on better universal income, health, basic amenities, things like that. And I'd hope that if that was the case, it would also mean no one works for DoorDash making 2$ an hour, since that's less then your universal benefits would even give you. But I'm not sold on any one idea. So I'm asking to help refine my opinion. I feel I'm missing a piece of the picture here.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#307

Post by nextlevelwizard »

This is pretty simple. If you make just enough for gas and can't feed your kids, you need to find another job.

This is exactly the same out cry every restaurant server makes: "without tips I couldn't live! so you are responsible to tip if you eat out". When in reality they have to make enough to keep working, so that is just social pressure from them to bleed out money from rest of us.

In no other job would we tolerate this kind of behavior. Why should we feel bad for these people?

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#308

Post by hurricanetc »

consp wrote: post #304
hurricanetc wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure most people would prefer more money. But if service workers were paid “normal” wages people wouldn’t feel guilted into tipping. Minimum wage in NYC is $15/hour and $10/hour for food service workers. Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips. But are the employees actually earning more? I doubt it.

You are already naming the problem here: > Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips. Service bad? -> complain to employer, employer punishes employee Service OK? -> employer pays employee for work done Service good? -> employer pays employee for work done and customer pays employee for good work (and employee shares it with all the other employees who are in the chain of service).

See it’s the “service good” category that I don’t think will exist. Why would people tip when tipping is no longer socially mandated?

Where people seem to disagree here is with the idea that service workers are better off with low wages + tipping than higher wages + no tipping.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#309

Post by tremon »

franga2000 wrote: post #199
2rsf wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we can, that's how it works in Sweden and AFAIK in many other European countries. Tips are not expected, and are meant only for extraordinary service. The base pay is decent and so are the benefits like vacation, pension etc.

Is there any other country other than the US where paying service workers below minimum wage is legal or acceptable? I've been around a fair bit of Europe and surroundings and I've never encountered the US system.

While not legally the same, the UK comes close with its minimum wage/living wage gap: society acknowledges that minimum wage is not enough to make a living (in some areas) so it expects workers to be paid the living wage instead. I don't think this is mandated by law though, so you could have situations where workers are paid below the socially expected "minimum" wage.

At least they acknowledge the problem.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#310

Post by mynameishere »

jakobegger wrote: post #294
eru wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I should have been a bit more clear. When customers tip, and total wages in the tipped jobs are thus higher than in the non-tipped alternatives, workers will change jobs until expected total wages are about equal. What works in other countries, eg Japan or Australia, is that different social norms lead to much less total tipping. But you can't transform eg American into Japan or Australia at a whim. It's up t…

I don't think the system will fix itself by banning tips. That doesn't help anyone. What society should do is require a decent base pay (regardless of tip). That way I know that my server can make ends meet if I tip them or not, and tipping them becomes a curtesy, not a necessity.

I think a lot of people making comments like this don't realize that the market price of waitstaff's labor is probably similar to fast food or other retail work--$10/hour, maybe a bit more. With tipping, waitstaff can make really good money, to the point that any efforts on the part of a restaurant owner to replace tipping with higher wages tends to result in the entire staff quitting.

My point: If "society" "requires a decent base pay", then waiters are going to get shafted, unless by "decent" you mean $40+/hour. The people getting screwed by tipping culture are not the front-of-house workers, but the other employees and the customers.

I think the most compelling argument is to point out that the people doing the real work in a restaurant--the cooks and the dishwashers--are paid much worse than the waitstaff, who really aren't even necessary.

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