Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products • Hacker News Board

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#41

Post by thebigspacefuck » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:13 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #15

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #13

The big problem seems to be that vaping has never been proven to be safe or safer than cigarettes. There's always been the assumption that it is. My suspicion is that something like this outbreak will happen again. I'm not a fan of the vaping companies since their goal seems to be to get users addicted to their product but they should go through the process of proving that vaping is safer than cigarettes so they don'…

Cigarettes kill almost 500,000 people a year in the US alone. We could have 10 of these "outbreaks" a day and still be way ahead.

It seems like people shouldn’t be equal when in one case it means 50 or 60 year olds dying from a four pack a day habit that they refused to quit after a lifetime of warning and in the other case it’s a teen or young twenty year old that vaped the wrong thing once not really knowing what they were getting into

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#42

Post by catalogia » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:15 AM UTC

thebigspacefuck wrote: post #40

Stratoscope wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stories were never about cannabis vaping either. They were about adulterated cannabis extract vaping. Someone using a cannabis flower vaporizer (e.g. PAX 2/3, Firefly, Arizer, Volcano) with pure lab tested flower was never at risk for the lung disease that vitamin E acetate has caused. The linked article doesn't mention vitamin E acetate, so here's one that discusses it: https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/20/210317…

It’s irritating that Apple pulled the Pax app from the App Store because it was related to “vaping”.

What does a vap app even do? Mine works just fine without an app.

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#43

Post by lightedman » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:18 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #42

thebigspacefuck wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s irritating that Apple pulled the Pax app from the App Store because it was related to “vaping”.

What does a vap app even do? Mine works just fine without an app.

There exist multi-cart vapes where you can load up 4 different carts (one THC, one CBD, one Terps, one Flavoring agent, as an example) and control the dispensed amount of each via phone app.

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#44

Post by thebigspacefuck » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:20 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #31

Stratoscope wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stories were never about cannabis vaping either. They were about adulterated cannabis extract vaping. Someone using a cannabis flower vaporizer (e.g. PAX 2/3, Firefly, Arizer, Volcano) with pure lab tested flower was never at risk for the lung disease that vitamin E acetate has caused. The linked article doesn't mention vitamin E acetate, so here's one that discusses it: https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/20/210317…

> pure lab tested flower There has been some trouble with that too. Washington state doesn't require lab testing for pesticides, and in other states there have been cases of fraudulent testing ( https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/industry-insiders-warn... https://www.leafly.com/news/industry/sequoia-analytics-surre... ) The industry is still maturing and I'm confident things will get better with time. But for the…

There have been a few issues due to mold and yeast contamination too. Still, better than the black market days because you can check the serial number against the contaminated batches.

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#45

Post by brokensegue » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:21 AM UTC

icanhackit wrote: post #35

brokensegue wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it wasn't a contaminated batch. we know what caused it. it was a particular formulation of vape juice used by multiple suppliers.

That's what I meant. Specific products were using a harmful substance, rather than the act of vaping causing illness.

ok sure. contaminated often implies some kind of accidental addition of harmful substances which isn't the case here which is what I was clarifying.

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#46

Post by pergadad » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:22 AM UTC

This seems to be a rather simplistic/one-sided answer furthering a specific agenda.

* The responses that don't fit the narrative that 'legal' vaping is safe are'explained away' in this article - that's just unscientific and a matter of ignoring contrary evidence. * There are other dangers to vaping ignored in the argument (eg addiction, kids starting even earlier if there's 'bubblegum' or 'cherry' flavour rather than tobacco * No long term studies, so we really have no idea what's safe and what's not. * Overall there's no control or standards on the stuff in the vaping juice, so we still don't really know what effect which product might have. * The bans were not motivated just by the sick people but also the various other factors - so even if true that 'legal'vaping products weren't the cause there are many questions still to be answered. * ...

The world is never so black and white as this article paints it.

A) Is vaping better than cigarettes? Maybe. Is it better people switch to vaping? Maybe. Is it better we encourage/aid them to stop smoking and vaping? Absolutely.

B) Will flavoured vaping with sweet flavours, wild west unlicensed/non-regulatef ingredients and unchecked advertising get more young people and even children interested and hooked? Absolutely.

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#47

Post by 420basteit » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

dingbats wrote: post #29

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #13

The big problem seems to be that vaping has never been proven to be safe or safer than cigarettes. There's always been the assumption that it is. My suspicion is that something like this outbreak will happen again. I'm not a fan of the vaping companies since their goal seems to be to get users addicted to their product but they should go through the process of proving that vaping is safer than cigarettes so they don'…

Burning carbon chains and directly afterwards ingesting it into the lungs has been proven to be quite bad, it does cell and tissue damage and hinders a healthy cell respiration. Is there any reason we should expect worse effects from vaping which, as I understand it, if done correctly doesn't produce harmful carbons?

There is reason to consider this a possibility, since many molecules may be potentially harmful when inhaled as vapor, with unknown health effects (ie vitamin E acetate), but under combustion would deteriorate mostly or entirely into the carbon forms that have well understood effect on health -- as a previous commenter mentioned, 10yr lifespan reduction from long term continuous cigarette use.

There is just not longitudinal data available for vaporizing plants or synthetic nicotine/thc concentrates. It could be an even higher lifespan reduction than smoking!

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#48

Post by mikeappell » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:40 AM UTC

g82918 wrote: post #4

Very early on scientists identified vitamin E additives as being the cause. Most black market vapes added vitamin E acetate ,etc.. to enhance the flavor profile of the "carts". Overall this isn't super surprising.

I'm not sure if it was so much the flavor profile as it was being used to thin out the product using an inexpensive thinning agent. THC concentrate is very viscous, and needs to be cut with something to be viable for cartridge use.

Iirc terpenes are used in higher quality products.

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#49

Post by dstaley » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:47 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #42

thebigspacefuck wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s irritating that Apple pulled the Pax app from the App Store because it was related to “vaping”.

What does a vap app even do? Mine works just fine without an app.

The Pax app let's you set dosage controls so that you can always get a consistent hit each time. The new Era Pro even remembers the dosage based on which pod you're using, which is super useful for me since I have a sativa pod set to one dose and an indica pod set to two. The app also supports fine-grained temperature control in addition to surfacing information related to the pod like lab testing results.

Re: Vaping-related lung injuries primarily linked to black-market products

#50

Post by eurleif » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 5:50 AM UTC

mikeappell wrote: post #48

g82918 wrote: post #4

Very early on scientists identified vitamin E additives as being the cause. Most black market vapes added vitamin E acetate ,etc.. to enhance the flavor profile of the "carts". Overall this isn't super surprising.

I'm not sure if it was so much the flavor profile as it was being used to thin out the product using an inexpensive thinning agent. THC concentrate is very viscous, and needs to be cut with something to be viable for cartridge use. Iirc terpenes are used in higher quality products.

From what I've read, the primary goal was to cut it without thinning it very much, in order to pass the "bubble test". Consumers would test viscosity by observing how quickly the airbubble in the cartridge moved. Vitamin E acetate is thick enough to deceive people into thinking the cartridge wasn't cut.