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The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#101

Post by yorwba »

yorwba wrote: post #55
ravedave5 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but which one of the 38 citations makes this statement? I vastly prefer wikipedia's style of having direct inline citations for statements that are making claims.

The citation for lowering test scores is probably supposed to be PISA, which doesn't get listed in the footnotes, so who knows which report he got it from. The citation for harming long-term memory is https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01443410.2018.1... which specifically investigates the distracting effect of allowing the use of phones and laptops during class for purposes other than the class itself. (Ir…

Having now looked at http://www.oecd.org/pisa/publications/pisa-2018-results.htm I didn't find anything like the figure included in the article, nor any indication PISA actually involves collecting information about technology use, which makes me wonder how reliable that article's statements really are.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#102

Post by jacobolus »

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #93
jacobolus wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think students will better learn to spell without spellcheck? As far as I can tell spending class time on spelling per se and/or grading students on spelling mistakes is a complete waste of time and focus. The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. It’s plausi…

I don't have studies, but the idea is they never have to learn it because the computer just does it for them. So why bother? It's anecdotal, but growing up the students who relied on their calculators never really learned to do mental math the same. The difference was palpable. But I'm not a formal teacher or expert when it comes to the psychology of learning, so I also welcome studies on this subject.

Spellcheck is not like a handheld electronic calculator. It doesn’t write for you.

It’s more like a system that would let you practice doing arithmetic with pen and paper but then immediately show errors.

Look at how people practice board games nowadays: they try making their own moves but get a precise computer analysis to reveal when they have made a blunder on the spot, for real-time feedback. This is not the same as just watching the computer play against itself.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#103

Post by yorwba »

Ensorceled wrote: post #71
fenwick67 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 38 citations in TFA

Also, this is a claim in the essay's introductory paragraph and the claim is supported by paragraphs and citations in the rest of the essay. This knee jerk "citation needed" on HN is getting tiresome.

The claim that "technology in schools actually lowers test scores in reading, math, and science" is not supported by identifiable sources, so some skepticism is warranted.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#104

Post by K0SM0S »

SolarNet wrote: post #61
lordnacho wrote: post #54

First of all, could someone enlighten the non-US readers about what common core is? I hear the term a lot, not clear what the main ideas actually are or how people view it. My own kids go to private schools in the UK. None of the parents would have any problems buying a load of tablets or VR goggles or whatever if the schools said so, and the schools would not have any problems buying whatever manner of gadgets they…

> First of all, could someone enlighten the non-US readers about what common core is? A new set of standards for education that are meant to cut across state lines (e.g. California and Texas previously set education standards merely through market volume and being the biggest purchasers). It's mostly fine. A lot of people are upset that they "changed how math works" but what they really did was introduce a bunch of d…

> what they really did was introduce a bunch of different ways for students to think about math so they can get a working math literacy. Instead of being a prescriptive standards ("this is how math works") its more descriptive ("here are a dozen ways one could reason about math to get the answer"). The hope is that this will allow students to better pick up and understand more advanced math in the future, while also providing more opportunities for struggling students to "get it" (e.g. because one example worked for them).

This strikes me as particularly intelligent an approach. That's one of my top 5 complains about my time in school — born in 2982, graduated HS in 2000.

I had great fluency in math because my father basically tutored me in math/physics from 7~16 y.o., so I could help my friends "getting it" usually with a simple drawing or some other approach (and lots, lots of examples to "see" it).

If public education is finally trying to solve this problem, we might have much higher math and logical literacy in future generations. The benefit might be huge in all regards, especially political and social. IMHO.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#105

Post by johnchristopher »

jacobolus wrote: post #81
plughs wrote: post #8

Our elementary school uses chromebooks from 1st grade on, and I do see a lot of downsides. The most outrageous problem, IMO, is that there are 'modules' that must be completed, and kids with computer access at home can work on them at home. Kids from low income families are screwed over - again. Other problems - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? - The de-emphasis on…

Why do you think students will better learn to spell without spellcheck? As far as I can tell spending class time on spelling per se and/or grading students on spelling mistakes is a complete waste of time and focus. The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. It’s plausi…

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-18158665

N=1: I feel like - and I am 99% certain - that my grammatical and spelling skills have decreased since I started using the internet heavily.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#106

Post by OnlineGladiator »

jacobolus wrote: post #102
OnlineGladiator wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have studies, but the idea is they never have to learn it because the computer just does it for them. So why bother? It's anecdotal, but growing up the students who relied on their calculators never really learned to do mental math the same. The difference was palpable. But I'm not a formal teacher or expert when it comes to the psychology of learning, so I also welcome studies on this subject.

Spellcheck is not like a handheld electronic calculator. It doesn’t write for you. It’s more like a system that would let you practice doing arithmetic with pen and paper but then immediately show errors. Look at how people practice board games nowadays: they try making their own moves but get a precise computer analysis to reveal when they have made a blunder on the spot, for real-time feedback. This is not the same…

You're thinking of it as a pedagological tool. I'm thinking of it as a crutch. The truth is in-between and will vary from person to person, but I'd bet money most people lean on it more than they learn from it.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#107

Post by Wowfunhappy »

triceratops wrote: post #99
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #83

I only ever write on a computer. I own a single pen which I have not needed to replace since I moved into my apartment in 2016. I'm pretty sure I last used it in November, when I had to fill out a form for jury duty. The article cite studies that handwriting is linked to brain development, and reading on paper improves memory, and so on... I'm certainly not in a position to refute those studies, but I have to wonder…

> we should be teaching the skills that people need in today's world, and that overwhelmingly means typing. You don't need a ton of practice to get good at typing. Anyone can reach 80 WPM within a year. That's more than enough. Handwriting is much more difficult and needs more practice. Even software engineers who type all the time need to write on whiteboards to get jobs. /s

> Handwriting is much more difficult and needs more practice.

Okay, I'll buy that. So, why are we teaching it? For whiteboard interviews?

I realize it will take some restructuring of society before handwriting is an obsolete skill, but gradually de-emphasizing it in school isn't a bad way to get there, over the course of a few generations. The time schools save can be used on any number of other skills.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#108

Post by catalogia »

NeoBasilisk wrote: post #88
_audakel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of they don't have to memorize random spellings it could free up mental resources for other things. Regardless, why be stuck in the past with things like handwriting or spelling or cursive?

You don't think it would be embarrassing to be standing at a whiteboard at work and be unable to spell basic words?

I think in the entirety of my 16 years as a student, I probably wrote less than 100 words total on blackboards or whiteboards. There weren't computers or ipads in those classrooms either.

Whiteboards are something I use more often at work these days, but not really when I was in school.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#109

Post by Ensorceled »

yorwba wrote: post #103
Ensorceled wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, this is a claim in the essay's introductory paragraph and the claim is supported by paragraphs and citations in the rest of the essay. This knee jerk "citation needed" on HN is getting tiresome.

The claim that "technology in schools actually lowers test scores in reading, math, and science" is not supported by identifiable sources, so some skepticism is warranted.

Later in the essay, the author has supporting examples AND references for his opening claims. For lowering test scores there are two examples that I found in a few moments of looking.

> In a study of over seven hundred students at West Point, those with computers in class had test scores 0.2 standard deviations below those of students who did not.12

> In one study, the final exam scores of students whose class permitted electronic devices were 5 percentage points lower than those whose classes did not.13

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#110

Post by pier25 »

It totally is.

I worked in EdTech for the past 4 years and was in contact with the education world.

Digital devices are harmful to younger kids. The brain develops much better when using fine motor skills such as writing with pen and paper. France banned all digital devices in primary schools for a reason and all countries should do it.

The most important factor in getting quality education are not digital devices or educational material but the quality of the teacher. The OECD did a study about the use of computers by students at the school and at home[0]. See the results for yourself. Countries like China, Singapoore, Finland, and Estonia barely use computers but have some of the best PISA academic results.

[0]: http://www.oecd.org/education/students-computers-and-learnin...

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