The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development • Hacker News Board

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#91

Post by catalogia » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:34 PM UTC

plughs wrote: post #8

Our elementary school uses chromebooks from 1st grade on, and I do see a lot of downsides. The most outrageous problem, IMO, is that there are 'modules' that must be completed, and kids with computer access at home can work on them at home. Kids from low income families are screwed over - again. Other problems - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? - The de-emphasis on…

> - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you?

I don't have an answer to that question. At least, not a better one than than some vague "it will build character." Do you have another answer in mind?

Something I've been wondering about is the effect of typewriters and word processors on the development of penmanship. Has the average penmanship of a highschool graduate improved or declined with the proliferation of these technologies in schools? Has anybody researched this matter? I have my suspicions, but they're only suspicions.

Supposing it got worse though, would that matter? Maybe the dexterity/coordination skills are transferable. But if that's the case, has that manifested in any apparent way? And if not, does it really matter?

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#92

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

jriot wrote: post #86

downerending wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess so. Mostly those team activities were an opportunity to re-experience the unfortunate fact that I was generally unliked and socially unskilled. It might be useful to actually teach those skills as an independent targeted activity, but turning science or math into a social activity sounds like a lose-lose.

And kids who had social skills yet struggled with math still had to do math. School isn't just the Rs, it's also about learning how to function in a society with other people.

[deleted]

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#93

Post by OnlineGladiator » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #81

plughs wrote: post #8

Our elementary school uses chromebooks from 1st grade on, and I do see a lot of downsides. The most outrageous problem, IMO, is that there are 'modules' that must be completed, and kids with computer access at home can work on them at home. Kids from low income families are screwed over - again. Other problems - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? - The de-emphasis on…

Why do you think students will better learn to spell without spellcheck? As far as I can tell spending class time on spelling per se and/or grading students on spelling mistakes is a complete waste of time and focus. The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. It’s plausi…

I don't have studies, but the idea is they never have to learn it because the computer just does it for them. So why bother?

It's anecdotal, but growing up the students who relied on their calculators never really learned to do mental math the same. The difference was palpable.

But I'm not a formal teacher or expert when it comes to the psychology of learning, so I also welcome studies on this subject.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#94

Post by yorwba » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

emmelaich wrote: post #73

MadWombat wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I pointed out that you don't need a laptop at all to learn I am going to assume that, being a good parent, that is what you do. That when you need to learn something new, you do not research it on your phone or laptop, you go to a library, check out a number of books and reference materials, read them and take notes (maybe not on a shovel, but on a physical writing medium of some sort). That you did not blow off yo…

Well, yeah. We have a ton of books, including a set of the Encyclopedia Britannica. There is a very strong tradition of learning in our family. That said, it was no "blow off"; having a slightly newer laptop is not something a student should be concerned with. And they understand that. But also ... I think researching with your phone or laptop is perfectly fine as long as it is done with care. And is not the only met…

It's properly spelled "Encyclopædia Britannica" https://www.britannica.com/topic/Encyclopaedia-Britannica-En...

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#95

Post by grawprog » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #81

plughs wrote: post #8

Our elementary school uses chromebooks from 1st grade on, and I do see a lot of downsides. The most outrageous problem, IMO, is that there are 'modules' that must be completed, and kids with computer access at home can work on them at home. Kids from low income families are screwed over - again. Other problems - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? - The de-emphasis on…

Why do you think students will better learn to spell without spellcheck? As far as I can tell spending class time on spelling per se and/or grading students on spelling mistakes is a complete waste of time and focus. The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. It’s plausi…

>The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment.

I'm not sure I agree with this. This doesn't teach the fundamentals and rules of how words are put together. Learning to spell isn't memorizing lists of words, it's learning the rules of English and how words are actually put together so, even if you don't know how a word's spelled, you should be able to at least be able to make a good guess based on your knowledge of English. The spell checker doesn't teach you any of this.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#96

Post by K0SM0S » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

steverb wrote: post #19

Glyptodon wrote: post #13

Getting kids away from electronics is definitely important, and in some respects I find myself agreeing with multiple points from this: I absolutely agree that (in the USA) K-12 Education's basis should indeed be civic education, or the education required to create excellent citizens. I also absolutely agree that giving kids "technology" (as smartphones, tablets, Baby Shark, and the rest are known) can be unexpectedl…

I agree, and having been the volunteer runner of my kid's middle school computer clubs (and occasional stand-in teacher) I think the best way to teach computing is not with computers, but with pencil, paper and classroom simulations. We've successfully implemented some very simple computers by letting various class members stand in for components, and we had one very good implementation of TCP/IP over middleschooler.

This is incredibly funny and probably an experience that most of these kids will remember — whenever they hear "TCP/IP", they'll think back to images, impressions of this day/class.

I love such not-so-random acts of awesomeness! Kudos, steverb.

Question: have you observed some of these kids then "level up" (over the next months, years; "days" is clearly too short to internalize I think) with regards to these topics, or general "abstractions", that made you think "hum, this is definitely very, very much like what I tried to teach with TCP/IP"?

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#97

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:43 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #95

jacobolus wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think students will better learn to spell without spellcheck? As far as I can tell spending class time on spelling per se and/or grading students on spelling mistakes is a complete waste of time and focus. The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. It’s plausi…

>The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. I'm not sure I agree with this. This doesn't teach the fundamentals and rules of how words are put together. Learning to spell isn't memorizing lists of words, it's learning the rules of English and how words are actually put t…

[deleted]

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#98

Post by catalogia » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #81

plughs wrote: post #8

Our elementary school uses chromebooks from 1st grade on, and I do see a lot of downsides. The most outrageous problem, IMO, is that there are 'modules' that must be completed, and kids with computer access at home can work on them at home. Kids from low income families are screwed over - again. Other problems - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? - The de-emphasis on…

Why do you think students will better learn to spell without spellcheck? As far as I can tell spending class time on spelling per se and/or grading students on spelling mistakes is a complete waste of time and focus. The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. It’s plausi…

I generally think that the sort of knowledge best learned with flash cards is probably knowledge not memorizing in the first place, with the truth of this being proportional to the size of the dataset being learned. For sets in the neighborhood of 200 or less, I don't think it's a big problem. Chemistry classes asking you to memorize the mapping of element names ⟷ element symbols seems okay. But memorizing the spelling of several hundred to thousands of words? That seems like a job for a machine.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#99

Post by triceratops » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:46 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #83

I only ever write on a computer. I own a single pen which I have not needed to replace since I moved into my apartment in 2016. I'm pretty sure I last used it in November, when I had to fill out a form for jury duty. The article cite studies that handwriting is linked to brain development, and reading on paper improves memory, and so on... I'm certainly not in a position to refute those studies, but I have to wonder…

> we should be teaching the skills that people need in today's world, and that overwhelmingly means typing.

You don't need a ton of practice to get good at typing. Anyone can reach 80 WPM within a year. That's more than enough. Handwriting is much more difficult and needs more practice.

Even software engineers who type all the time need to write on whiteboards to get jobs. /s

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#100

Post by jacobolus » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #95

jacobolus wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think students will better learn to spell without spellcheck? As far as I can tell spending class time on spelling per se and/or grading students on spelling mistakes is a complete waste of time and focus. The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. It’s plausi…

>The ideal way to teach spelling is (1) get kids to read a whole lot, (2) show students their mistakes in context when they make them on as short a feedback loop as possible, without judgment. I'm not sure I agree with this. This doesn't teach the fundamentals and rules of how words are put together. Learning to spell isn't memorizing lists of words, it's learning the rules of English and how words are actually put t…

People don’t learn the “rules of English” through explicit instruction. They learn them through years (decades) of exposure.

Anecdotally, the main predictor of how good someone’s spelling will be is how much reading they have done.