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An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

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Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#71

Post by jbotz »

mFixman wrote: post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

Here is an even more interesting question: if an ML algorithm can be considered conscious, do you even need to "run" it (whether on a computer or by a "group of people doing calculations by hand") for that consciousness to exist? An algorithm is fully deterministic... it will always produce the same result, always "think the same thoughts" given the same input. So where is the consciousness, in the execution, or in the algorithm?

Think of Conway's Game of Life, which has been shown to be turing-complete. The various "creatures" that exist in its worlds exist even without the program being run. We run the program only to observe them... the execution is for the external observer's benefit, the creatures exist in the "mathematical space" of the cellular automaton, not on the computer where the simulation is run. If an algorithm can be conscious, then so can one of this game's creatures, and its consciousness will be observing and interacting with the Game's mathematical reality, which will seem quite physical to that creature even without ever being simulated on any "physical" (to us) hardware.

Maybe all of existence is like that, no? There are people who say that maybe our Universe is a simulation. I say sure, but it doesn't need to be "running" on anything... it just exists because the rules it follows exist mathematically. It does get simulated, to an approximation however... inside our conscious observation of it! The Universe "exists" mathematically, but a subset of it "runs" in the brains of the observers to which it gives rise... it is the ultimate strange loop, forever eating its own tail.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#73

Post by sitkack »

mFixman wrote: post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

Consciousness aside, Capitalism forms a mind over all the people that participate in it, directly or indirectly.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#74

Post by sitkack »

iRobbery wrote: post #16
jakear wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more surprising for me is that the queen can live 30+ years.

to my surprise i still watch this youtube channel after seeing a video by accident https://www.youtube.com/user/AntsCanada

I wish I could watch this in my sleep.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#75

Post by ryukafalz »

jbotz wrote: post #71
mFixman wrote: post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

Here is an even more interesting question: if an ML algorithm can be considered conscious, do you even need to "run" it (whether on a computer or by a "group of people doing calculations by hand") for that consciousness to exist? An algorithm is fully deterministic... it will always produce the same result, always "think the same thoughts" given the same input. So where is the consciousness, in the execution, or in t…

This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot ever since reading Permutation City, which touches on that at one point. I’d highly recommend it if you haven’t read it.

You’ve put the idea more succinctly than I could have, so thanks for that.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#76

Post by goatlover »

ajuc wrote: post #57
lou1306 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the Chinese Room argument. Basically, it goes like that: I never took any Chinese lesson. However, suppose I obtain a huge instruction manual that tells me exactly which sequence of Chinese characters I should use to reply to any sequence of Chinese characters you (a native Chinese speaker) give me. Do I "know/understand" Chinese?

Yes - the system (you + the book) know Chinese. Let me ask you another question - when I throw a ball at you your subconcious brain has to solve a differential equation to know how to use muscles to catch that ball. Do you know how to catch a ball if you don't know the math but still can catch it?

> Yes - the system (you + the book) know Chinese.

Or the system knows how to translate from English to Chinese. Human language isn't simply about following translation rules, though. It's also about communication and expressing thought. Or participating in language games.

> Let me ask you another question - when I throw a ball at you your subconcious brain has to solve a differential equation to know how to use muscles to catch that ball.

Why suppose the neural network needs to solve differential equations? Is that the only way to learn to catch a ball?

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#77

Post by mhb »

hansbo wrote: post #15
anonytrary wrote: post #2

> Ants use the rate at which they meet and smell other ants, or the chemicals deposited by other ants, to decide what to do next. A neuron uses the rate at which it is stimulated by other neurons to decide whether to fire. In both cases, memory arises from changes in how ants or neurons connect and stimulate each other. Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with e…

> Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with emergent large-scale behavior. Indeed the same could be said about networks of neurons. Interesting to think of an ant colony as the sum of oscillations of signals. Indeed. I've long thought that an ant colony should be seen as a single individual, rather than a group. One part which can procreate, like the reproductive…

I've long thought that an ant colony should be seen as a single individual, rather than a group.

The great E.O. Wilson has had similar ruminations: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/books/review/Jones-t.html

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#78

Post by Lambdanaut »

koonsolo wrote: post #22
hansbo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with emergent large-scale behavior. Indeed the same could be said about networks of neurons. Interesting to think of an ant colony as the sum of oscillations of signals. Indeed. I've long thought that an ant colony should be seen as a single individual, rather than a group. One part which can procreate, like the reproductive…

I was going to say you can also look at a country like this, with roads as veins, military as white blood cells, scientists/universities for brains, etc. But my theory falls apart with the reproduction system. We don't really reproduce other 'countries'. While with ant colonies, a single entity produces all the "cells", and also all the "embryos" to start their own ant colonies. In that sense an ant colony uses asexu…

Countries die and are reborn as new countries. The USA is a child of England.

Countries definitely do reproduce, usually on a longer cycle than that of the humans that make them up.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#79

Post by thrav »

golergka wrote: post #47
mFixman wrote: post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

Personally, I don't see any reason not to perceive a commercial company or other similar societal structure as an AI.

People are basically the cells of a city.
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