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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#501

Post by dang »

unapologetic wrote: post #496
dang wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factual accuracy isn't enough to make a comment substantive, and the point about "wage slavery not being much better" is an empty cliché. We're looking for thoughtful discussion here, not throwaway lines. I've posted thousands of comments explaining HN moderation—probably tens of thousands, in fact—so I'll have to differ with you on it lacking "any sort of transparency". What would you like to know?

> What would you like to know? What are the actual rules? You are the most arbitrary and least transparent mod I've ever dealt with. You wield the word "unsubstantive" as a cudgel. You seemingly only hold the goal of stifling discussion that might be against the accepted HN positions. The result is board that yes, does mostly lack flame wars. It's also bland and processed and almost impossible to contribute to, and I…

I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated. I'm sorry you don't like it, and if I saw a path from here to maybe getting you to like it better, I'd be happy to try. But I'm not seeing that yet. It takes a ton of time and energy to answer posts like this, and that investment only makes sense when there's a visible modicum of good faith to begin with—otherwise it just results in twice as much fulmination, which helps nothing, and takes resources away from helping other users.

I can take a crack at replying to your question about those specific comments though. A comment that said only "We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power" would be lame and unsubstantive, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21983921 went on to say other things that made for a thoughtful comment, though the generic ideological topic (unions-good-or-bad) is a bad one for HN. I don't see why we would moderate a comment like that.

The reply "No we don't, that is called slavery." is lame and pedantic, but I wouldn't call it flamebait. That is the contrarian dynamic which can't resist pointing out a logical flaw in something somebody said. HN has this all over the place, as does everywhere else ("someone is wrong on the internet"...) They are low-quality comments but they don't typically start flamewars unless there is some other baity element in there.

You, on the other hand, have been posting obviously flamebaity and ideological battle comments as well as fuming about "groupthink" and "wrongthink" and downvoting and how awful everything here is. You might find HN less "impossible to contribute to" if you took its intended spirit to heart. You could start with trying for thoughtful conversation and assuming good faith, as well as the rest of what https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ask.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#502

Post by Ericson2314 »

nitrogen wrote: post #469
Ericson2314 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only problem is, I don't see how you're going to get top engineers to join. You appeal to their boredom. FAANG pays people to not compete more than anything. Rotation is a chance to break the monotony and actually be able to steer the ship for a change.

Engineers care about teams too though. Could a unionized software engineer choose to avoid or prefer people they do or don't work well with?

Why not? Unions are restricted by law in funny ways, but I can't see why they would be constrained around this.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#503

Post by Ericson2314 »

mc32 wrote: post #458
Ericson2314 wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the huge decline of unions there's no way the old ways are set in stone. A freshly unionized field should take care to make sure new members don't loose the politics and enthusiasm, leading to decline a generation later.

Unions lost for a couple of reasons: their feet were cut out from under them via outsourcing/globalization. They didn’t/couldn’t picket moving factories overseas and both political parties were complicit in this. Similarly the economy moved toward services and unions didn’t prepare for that. Three unions ossified, became political and self-serving (not looking after their workers solely but looking after the org for…

Yes this is all true to some degree. Check out the first article of https://libcom.org/files/Rad%20America%20V10%20I5.pdf for discussion of the changes to union structure at their peak which may helped along the 3rd.

My original point is the old unions have no leverage not to acknowledge this and accommodate the concerns of a newly union members in a freshly industry.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#504

Post by shitpostbot »

uerobert wrote: post #180
false-mirror wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely a tension. When employers can treat employees as disposable, there is more firing and thus (sometimes) more hiring. However, unions increase the value of jobs. Union workers enjoy a better QOL and career stability, and they can actually build a life for themselves without worrying about being fired on a whimsy. Luckily for something like game development, it is a growing industry with a low barrier…

Game dev is not a low barrier to entry industry. It is WAY easier to get a SDE job at a FAANG straight out of college than it is to get a job as a programmer at a big name studio, even with experience.

I'm pretty sure there are exactly zero SWEs weighing a 200k rest-and-vest offer from google and an 80k slave labor contract from Blizzard and struggling to decide where to go.

I'd be interested to be proven wrong though

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#505

Post by unapologetic »

dang wrote: post #501
unapologetic wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would you like to know? What are the actual rules? You are the most arbitrary and least transparent mod I've ever dealt with. You wield the word "unsubstantive" as a cudgel. You seemingly only hold the goal of stifling discussion that might be against the accepted HN positions. The result is board that yes, does mostly lack flame wars. It's also bland and processed and almost impossible to contribute to, and I…

I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated. I'm sorry you don't like it, and if I saw a path from here to maybe getting you to like it better, I'd be happy to try. But I'm not seeing that yet. It takes a ton of time and energy to answer posts like this, and that investment only makes sense when the…

> I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated.

and instead of reflecting on that for a minute you will continue on in exactly the same manner.

I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along. I find the moderation here now arbitrary, heavy handed, and pretty extremely biased.

> You, on the other hand, have been posting obviously flamebaity and ideological battle comments as well as fuming about "groupthink" and "wrongthink" and downvoting and how awful everything here is

Having and expressing any sort of ideology is against the rules. Great thanks.

Higher karma users have the ability to downvote. They use that to enforce their ideology. Anything that goes against the grain too much immediately gets downvoted and flagged. You personally described the my comment on wage slavery being bad as an "empty cliche". That's not condescending low effort flamebait?

You are so entrenched in your own ideology you can't even tell how deep you've gone. Just completely impossible to reason with.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#506

Post by unapologetic »

dang wrote: post #500
unapologetic wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No response and more downvotes. Exactly what I expected.

I didn't see your response till now, and the downvotes were from other users.

> downvotes were from other users.

Well of course they were. High karma users get to decide what is allowed on HN.

It's a pretty bad system.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#507

Post by dang »

unapologetic wrote: post #505
dang wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated. I'm sorry you don't like it, and if I saw a path from here to maybe getting you to like it better, I'd be happy to try. But I'm not seeing that yet. It takes a ton of time and energy to answer posts like this, and that investment only makes sense when the…

> I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated. and instead of reflecting on that for a minute you will continue on in exactly the same manner. I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along. I find the moderation here now arbitrary, heavy handed, and pretty extre…

> I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along.

When people go on about how badly they were treated on HN, but omit any verifiable details, I call such comments linkless martyrs [1]. Without links, readers have no way to make up their minds for themselves [2]. The past pattern has been that such claims are greatly exaggerated, leave out critical details, or are made up. Sob stories and tales of injustice are easy to produce, but looking at what actually happened reveals otherwise.

Perhaps your case is the exception? If so, you can easily prove it with links that show how you were posting like this "for years without issue before you came along". pg was 10x quicker to ban accounts than we are, so my bet is that what you're saying is false.

1. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

2. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#508

Post by unapologetic »

dang wrote: post #507
unapologetic wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I asked what you wanted to know, but reading this response, it doesn't seem like you want to know things so much as to fulminate against HN and how it is moderated. and instead of reflecting on that for a minute you will continue on in exactly the same manner. I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along. I find the moderation here now arbitrary, heavy handed, and pretty extre…

> I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along. When people go on about how badly they were treated on HN, but omit any verifiable details, I call such comments linkless martyrs [1]. Without links, readers have no way to make up their minds for themselves [2]. The past pattern has been that such claims are greatly exaggerated, leave out critical details, or are made up. Sob stor…

oh cool, now I'm a liar too.

> I call such comments linkless martyrs

You take pride in coining cute little phrases like that?

> If so, you can easily prove it with links that show how you were posting like this "for years without issue before you came along".

I really have no interest in playing your games at this point. I explained myself, you dismissed everything I said and seem to have zero interest in an honest conversation. Instead you'd rather pick a line and jerk yourself off about what a way with words you have.

> "wage slavery not being much better" is an empty cliché

Still haven't explained how that isn't unsubstantive flamebait. Smug jerk.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#509

Post by dang »

unapologetic wrote: post #508
dang wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was able to contribute to this site for years without issue before you came along. When people go on about how badly they were treated on HN, but omit any verifiable details, I call such comments linkless martyrs [1]. Without links, readers have no way to make up their minds for themselves [2]. The past pattern has been that such claims are greatly exaggerated, leave out critical details, or are made up. Sob stor…

oh cool, now I'm a liar too. > I call such comments linkless martyrs You take pride in coining cute little phrases like that? > If so, you can easily prove it with links that show how you were posting like this "for years without issue before you came along". I really have no interest in playing your games at this point. I explained myself, you dismissed everything I said and seem to have zero interest in an honest c…

I realize we're probably past bridgeable distance here, but if there's a way to explain it, I'd be curious to hear what would have counted as a more helpful response.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#510

Post by friendlybus »

unapologetic wrote: post #490
friendlybus wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the biggest companies in the American tech space value things other than money as the highest priority. Steve Jobs famously was product focused and warned against excessive greed. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/664366-if-you-keep-your-eye... Elon Musk poured his own money into his projects to the point of becoming bankrupt and was helped out by others who believed in the product. Cutting costs is the antith…

Steve Jobs died an obscenely wealthy man. Elon Musk will probably die an obscenely wealthy man. Every billionaire has a plan to save the world. None of them involve paying taxes.

Remarkably ignorant. Mining billionaires have said they could pay more tax. Bill gates is one of the biggest proponents of a robot tax and patent reform. Elon is a billionaire in Tesla stocks, not liquid cash. Tesla pays payroll tax and a bunch of other taxes.

What would you do with more taxes to save the world?

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