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What to do if you’re stopped by the police

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Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#81

Post by shantly »

mirimir wrote: post #75
CodeAndCuffs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying in court is always* illegal. Lying in general, e.g "I didn't steal anything", "I only had 2 beers", "These aren't my pants", is not inherently illegal. All of these are lies I've been told. As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over. Any defense attorney can bring that one time you got caught lying up in court, discounting your entire testimon…

> "These aren't my pants" I'd love to hear the context for that one :)

Guessing there were drugs in one or more pockets.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#82

Post by theothermkn »

James Duane recently updated his advice, incorrectly restated in the article and in many places in this thread, in a book entitled You Have the Right to Remain Innocent. There is a long and short of it, but I'd rather see you buy the book, so I'll just mention a few things. First, "I'd like to see a lawyer," is not nearly succinct nor strong enough, as per recent case law and Supreme Court rulings. Second, the Supreme Court has ruled that invoking the 5th Amendment can be admitted as evidence of guilt, especially if you say it wrong, as is simply remaining silent. Finally, the people in here saying to, for example, just assent to a search in order to be on their ways are hopelessly naive about the frequency of evidence planting, the potential to be misheard, misremembered, or deliberately misquoted by cops looking to get a tidy resolution to whatever messy situation confronts them. Not all of them, but enough of them and often enough that I cringe at most of the advice in this thread, much of which you (Yes, you!) personally think is great.

Buy the book. It's cheap, and an engaging quick read. Good luck to you all!

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#83

Post by jdkee »

CodeAndCuffs wrote: post #46
dmalvarado wrote: post #13

Main problem with this advice is, I can either assert my rights on principle, be detained, possibly held in lockup, deal with the lawyers and courts... Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk. I say this with full awareness of how fucked up it is, but your bet is to be white and polite.

Former cop here: You're right on the first part. Until you realize your friend left his gym bag with weed in it in your trunk. That looks bad man, and comes back on you. My best seizures came from consent searches. I've also had cars that I've stopped where I was darn sure they were moving something in it, but I didnt have PC, and I didn't have a dog nearby that I could get in reasonable time. I asked for consent, an…

“ If you come home and your spouse is missing and blood is everywhere, you are a suspect.”

Exactly. And this is why you should retain an attorney and let the attorney communicate with the police. Suspicion usually (and rightly so) falls on the spouse or intimate partner due to likely culpability given the statistics. Don’t become a statistic yourself and countenance yourself into an unwarranted charge.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#84

Post by nbar1 »

artificialLimbs wrote: post #78
mirimir wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone Why would they do that? Is that about being a drug dealer? I've probably been pulled over for speeding and/or crazy driving at least 30 times, and I've never been asked that.

I wonder if they go fishing for a big catch sometimes. I was pulled over for expired tags a couple weeks ago by city police. They asked for IDs for my wife and friend in the back seat. Our 2 year old was with us as well, in his car seat. We are all quite caucasian, in case anyone is wondering. I have no idea why we were asked this, but I declined the request. We got a warning for the tags.

To check for outstanding warrants.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#85

Post by knocte »

toadi wrote: post #66

Title should be if you get stopped in the US by the police. The US until today is not the world. In my country have been stopped by police a lot. Most of the time they are civilized. Some cases they can come over as dicks but as long as you don't escalate the situation and stay friendly nothing will happen.

THIS. In any other country that is not the US, the advice given by the article is really bad advice.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#86

Post by throwaway17_17 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #74
throwaway17_17 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say with absolute confidence that the ability for law enforcement to DETAIN you on less than no evidence is vastly more than slight, it’s enormous. Further, law enforcement’s ability to arrest you on ZERO evidence is extensive and it take time, money, and effort to get free and clear of the unsubstantiated charges.

Does standing up for your rights help or hurt? That's the salient question. I don't doubt your confidence, and, likely, experience. Only the specific strategy as outlined in this thread and article.

I would always encourage the exercise of rights, particularly against searches (as the parent mentioned). However, the refusal to search often, I hesitate to say always, but I can’t think any outstanding examples in my experience where a refusal to search did not automatically result in the search happening. And the results of that search in many cases will turn up enough ‘suspicion’ for the officer to arrest for some charge, even where actual evidence is clearly not enough.

I will certainly say that this is not universal, but refusals to search are often cited as suspicious behaviors, which then turns into more suspicious behaviors giving more reasons to continue the detention. Also, the purported difference between detention and arrest is nearly useless in practice, who feels like they are free to just get in their car and drive off.

So, the TL;DR is yes stand up for yourself and exercise your rights, but understand that in most cases in the US, if law enforcement wants to arrest you, they are going to find a reason to do so. Be smart, be safe.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#87

Post by catalogia »

lonelappde wrote: post #55
rtkwe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Act like a normal, sensible person. Don't try to provoke them, and don't give them any reason to escalate the encounter. The problem is asserting your rights and not acting like a docile thankful citizen can get treated as escalation in and of itself.

It's absolutely true and unfair that getting upset at your predicament can move used an excuse to harm you. That's why you have to act like a sensible, docile, thankful citizen who also asserts your rights. Do not act "normal". Normal gets you hurt.

If your 'normal' is "abrasiveness asshole with a hair-trigger temper", then definitely don't act normal. If your 'normal' is "sensible and calm", then act normal.

Whether "normal gets you hurt" or "gets you a professional interaction" says more about your particular personality than anything else.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#88

Post by AlexCoventry »

mirimir wrote: post #64
leggomylibro wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fair point, but I'm kind of getting tired of responding to it. I think that such an absolutist stance can be more harmful than helpful in some situations, and that view is backed by my anecdotal but not-insignificant experience. Some officers do not care about your rights or the law, and if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone, the…

> if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone Why would they do that? Is that about being a drug dealer? I've probably been pulled over for speeding and/or crazy driving at least 30 times, and I've never been asked that.

At least as of a few years ago, when police in Ohio stop you they seem to like asking you if you have any firearms in the car, just as the stop is wrapping up. I never figured that one out, either.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#89

Post by thatiscool »

something is wrong with the system if you need to be so paranoid with the policeman. it seems people are living under fear and police force in the U.S. can easily abuse their power and walk free.

Does anyone still remember the tragedy of Debian founder Ian Murdock suicided in San Francisco?

in EU or Asia, policeforce seems more approachable.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#90

Post by jdkee »

leggomylibro wrote: post #59
jdkee wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ One other thing which goes along with being polite and courteous, never lie outright to an officer. Use weasel words like, "not that I can think of" or, "I'm not sure why you would think that." That might sound suspicious at first glance, but they'll assume in the moment that just about any direct statement is a lie, anyways.” This is really bad advice. You need to re-watch the video you alluded to in your first pa…

It's a fair point, but I'm kind of getting tired of responding to it. I think that such an absolutist stance can be more harmful than helpful in some situations, and that view is backed by my anecdotal but not-insignificant experience. Some officers do not care about your rights or the law, and if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone, the…

I will respond point-by-point to your claims.

"It's a fair point, but I'm kind of getting tired of responding to it. I think that such an absolutist stance can be more harmful than helpful in some situations, and that view is backed by my anecdotal but not-insignificant experience."

If you do not admit anything, your statements cannot be used against you in court since you did not admit anything. And how do you tell in advance when your purported exculpatory statements will be helpful? Answer: you cannot. Hence you do not make statements.

"Some officers do not care about your rights or the law, and if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone, then you and your lawyer are going to spend a little while dealing with the matter."

If you are dealing with law enforcement that does not respect the law, why would you not want an attorney to present your side of the argument?

"Whereas if you give nothing away while remaining polite and courteous and aware that you are probably being lied to, you might drive off with a warning. You might still need to fall back to "am I being detained", but you might not. Sometimes you simply can't completely avoid a conversation, especially when the other party can physically compel you and make up an excuse later."

What you are describing is unlawful behaviour on the part of the law enforcement officer. A law enforcement officer cannot "compel" you to make a statement, as that would be inadmissible in a court of law as a statement made under unlawful duress.

"There is no universal good advice for such difficult and varied situations, and acting as though there is doesn't do anyone any favors."

Yes, there is under the U.S. criminal justice system. You do not make statements to law enforcement officers who are investigating a crime.

"And incidentally, the absolutist "never speak at all" part of the James Duane talk comes with the caveat, "if you are being suspected of a serious crime". The article seems to be more about officer-knocks-on-your-door or traffic stop sort of situations."

Whether it is a criminal offense or a civil wrong, e.g. a parking ticket, the same logic applies. Do not make statements to law enforcement.

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