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What to do if you’re stopped by the police

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Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#71

Post by chillingeffect »

torstenvl wrote: post #60
CodeAndCuffs wrote: post #17

Former cop here. The article states "You cannot lie to the police". This is, generally, incorrect. Some jurisdictions may have some specific law, but other than certain exceptions, lying has no general consequence. If it did, there would be a lot more charges against pretty much everyone who has been arrested. In my experience, people will lie about stuff that's not even relevant, or helpful to them. Exceptions inclu…

A caveat to lying: even if your particular jurisdiction doesn't criminalize lying to law enforcement, it can result in a truly devastating jury instruction. The judge will literally instruct the jury "It is reasonable to infer that an innocent person does not usually find it necessary to invent or fabricate an explanation or statement..." https://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/sites/ca3/files/2013%20Chapter%...

When you re-read the GP, recalling that the police are allowed to lie to you, realize that includes telling you it's ok to lie to them.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#72

Post by throwaway17_17 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #22
dmalvarado wrote: post #13

Main problem with this advice is, I can either assert my rights on principle, be detained, possibly held in lockup, deal with the lawyers and courts... Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk. I say this with full awareness of how fucked up it is, but your bet is to be white and polite.

Your trunk may well not be as empty as you think it is. The ability for police to detain you on no evidence is slight. And your opportunities for damages increase rapidly.

I can say with absolute confidence that the ability for law enforcement to DETAIN you on less than no evidence is vastly more than slight, it’s enormous. Further, law enforcement’s ability to arrest you on ZERO evidence is extensive and it take time, money, and effort to get free and clear of the unsubstantiated charges.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#73

Post by namewasmypw »

CodeAndCuffs wrote: post #58
iron0013 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over.” I wish that was the case, but as a LEO yourself you have to be aware that that’s absolutely untrue. Oh neat, there’s a whole Wikipedia article about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury I want to assume good faith and positive intent, but I have to be honest that it really strains credulity…

From your link: "A common trope amongst police officers in the United States is the aphorism: "If you lie, you die." This is indicative of the essential need for trustworthiness in the job—police officers are society's observers, enforcers and professional witnesses—and a warning that any deliberate falsehood can undermine the officer's continued usefulness, resulting in termination. Such terminations have been judic…

Is "if you lie, you die" in the code book next to "blue lives matter?"

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#74

Post by dredmorbius »

throwaway17_17 wrote: post #72
dredmorbius wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your trunk may well not be as empty as you think it is. The ability for police to detain you on no evidence is slight. And your opportunities for damages increase rapidly.

I can say with absolute confidence that the ability for law enforcement to DETAIN you on less than no evidence is vastly more than slight, it’s enormous. Further, law enforcement’s ability to arrest you on ZERO evidence is extensive and it take time, money, and effort to get free and clear of the unsubstantiated charges.

Does standing up for your rights help or hurt?

That's the salient question.

I don't doubt your confidence, and, likely, experience. Only the specific strategy as outlined in this thread and article.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#75

Post by mirimir »

CodeAndCuffs wrote: post #31
cassbot wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but my understanding was that lying to the police opens you up to obstruction of justice charges -- or perjury. For instance, I learned from law professor James Duane's video that Martha Stewart would have completely avoided prison time if she had not lied to investigators. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&feature=emb_titl...

Lying in court is always* illegal. Lying in general, e.g "I didn't steal anything", "I only had 2 beers", "These aren't my pants", is not inherently illegal. All of these are lies I've been told. As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over. Any defense attorney can bring that one time you got caught lying up in court, discounting your entire testimon…

> "These aren't my pants"

I'd love to hear the context for that one :)

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#76

Post by sterlind »

CodeAndCuffs wrote: post #35
chrisseaton wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lying in court is always* illegal. So if you plead not guilty to some crime, and they find you guilty, do you get prosecuted for lying in court with your plead as well as for the original crime?

I believe that entering a plea doesn't count as testimony, thus isnt subject to perjury laws. Most of my cases were plea deals before trial, or were cases where the defendant did not testify. Saying "not guilty" also doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do anything, you may honestly believe at that point, and make the argument, that the thing you did was not illegal.

What about Alford pleas? I thought they existed so that you could reserve the right to appeal or avoid a civil action by avoiding an admission of guilt while acknowledging that you will likely be convicted.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#77

Post by laurieg »

dmalvarado wrote: post #13

Main problem with this advice is, I can either assert my rights on principle, be detained, possibly held in lockup, deal with the lawyers and courts... Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk. I say this with full awareness of how fucked up it is, but your bet is to be white and polite.

Unfortunately, where I live (Japan), asserting your rights and refusing a search is seen as probable cause. "If you were innocent you would just consent to the search" is how the thinking goes.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#78

Post by artificialLimbs »

mirimir wrote: post #64
leggomylibro wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fair point, but I'm kind of getting tired of responding to it. I think that such an absolutist stance can be more harmful than helpful in some situations, and that view is backed by my anecdotal but not-insignificant experience. Some officers do not care about your rights or the law, and if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone, the…

> if you demand a lawyer when they ask how much cash is in the vehicle after they pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 zone Why would they do that? Is that about being a drug dealer? I've probably been pulled over for speeding and/or crazy driving at least 30 times, and I've never been asked that.

I wonder if they go fishing for a big catch sometimes.

I was pulled over for expired tags a couple weeks ago by city police. They asked for IDs for my wife and friend in the back seat. Our 2 year old was with us as well, in his car seat. We are all quite caucasian, in case anyone is wondering.

I have no idea why we were asked this, but I declined the request. We got a warning for the tags.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#79

Post by chadcmulligan »

So on the hacker news front page today:

Colleges are closing because they're to expensive

What to do if you're stopped by police

The Top 10 books include 1984 and Fahrenheit 451

all we need is something about medical insurance sending people broke and the ever present incarceration rate.

You guys should really fix this (not an American), its not that hard.

Re: What to do if you’re stopped by the police

#80

Post by RHSeeger »

simple_phrases wrote: post #26
dmalvarado wrote: post #13

Main problem with this advice is, I can either assert my rights on principle, be detained, possibly held in lockup, deal with the lawyers and courts... Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk. I say this with full awareness of how fucked up it is, but your bet is to be white and polite.

> Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk. And they proceed to literally tear apart your car with a knife, or if you're really unlucky, they plant evidence there.

Or the used car you bought 3 years ago was owned by someone who's son stashed a little bit of weed in the spare tire compartment. There's just so many things that can go wrong.
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