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Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

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Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#21

Post by ylem »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #10
iuygtfrikuj wrote: post #3

What proportion of those jobs are below minimum wage post-doc positions? The unemployment rate for panhandlers is also very low, very few of them face redundancy

What proportion of those jobs are below minimum wage post-doc positions? Probably not very many. Typical postdoc pay is $40-60k/year depending on where the job is located ($40k in Urbana-Champaigne, $60k NYC or Chicago). That's about 2-4x lower than what the postdoc could get in the outside world, but it's a far cry from minimum wage.

I'll echo that that depends very much on funding source. For some university postdocs, it is around $35K, for NIH postdocs, it's less than $50K. Given that the typical postdoc has done a PhD for 5-7 years and many people do two postdocs, it is something to consider. For example, the typical biologist gets her first from NIH at 42....Then, there are those that don't find employment using their science skills, but percolate into other industries (consulting, finance, etc.). I think it's a great lifestyle for those that succeed, but it is extremely competitive--finding faculty positions has also gotten harder due to contracted state funding of universities...

Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#22

Post by narkee »

grn wrote: post #9
narkee wrote: post #4

So P(jobless|PhD) = 0.017, whereas P(jobless) = 0.066 According to Baye's Theorem, the P(PhD|jobless) = P(jobless|PhD)*P(PhD)/P(jobless) Where according to [1], P(PhD) = 0.01 (for all PhDs) so assuming roughly half are science, P(PhD) = 0.005, and we get P(PhD|jobless) = 0.0013, or 0.13%, which means that roughly 1 out of every 1000 jobless people has a PhD. [1] http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo…

Bayes' theorem states that P(A|B) = P(B|A) * P(A) / P(B), so in this case it says P(PhD|jobless) = P(jobless|PhD) * P(PhD) / P(jobless). It seems that you stated it incorrectly but used the correct version in the computation (the incorrect gives 0.2244).

Right, good catch there - it was a sloppy typo.

Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#24

Post by iuygtfrikuj »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #10
iuygtfrikuj wrote: post #3

What proportion of those jobs are below minimum wage post-doc positions? The unemployment rate for panhandlers is also very low, very few of them face redundancy

What proportion of those jobs are below minimum wage post-doc positions? Probably not very many. Typical postdoc pay is $40-60k/year depending on where the job is located ($40k in Urbana-Champaigne, $60k NYC or Chicago). That's about 2-4x lower than what the postdoc could get in the outside world, but it's a far cry from minimum wage.

$40K for a how many hour week?

Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#25

Post by iqster »

bartonfink wrote: post #5
iqster wrote: post #2

Yes ... us scientists have an awesome life. We get to implant cameras in the backs of our head ( http://gothamist.com/2010/12/03/video_photos_nyu_prof_instal... ). Truly the good life!!

That dude is an art professor if I recall right from the posting the other day.

Fair enough ... I have a PhD in CS (recent). I make it a point to warn people it is not the good life profs and stupid articles make it out to be.

Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#26

Post by yummyfajitas »

timr wrote: post #17
yummyfajitas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What proportion of those jobs are below minimum wage post-doc positions? Probably not very many. Typical postdoc pay is $40-60k/year depending on where the job is located ($40k in Urbana-Champaigne, $60k NYC or Chicago). That's about 2-4x lower than what the postdoc could get in the outside world, but it's a far cry from minimum wage.

"Typical postdoc pay is $40-60k/year depending on where the job is located ($40k in Urbana-Champaigne, $60k NYC or Chicago)." I say thee "Ha!", sir. The offers I was getting for post-docs were consistently on or below the low end of that range, even in San Francisco (which ain't cheap). Probably one of the biggest nudges I had away from academia was the realization that as a post-doc, I'd have a lower standard of liv…

Wow, I guess my experience (in applied math/computational science) was atypical. I didn't get a single offer below $45k, and the only person I know who took less than that was working in New Zealand.

I guess applied math is the place to be if you want to stay in academia.

Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#27

Post by flurie »

FiReaNG3L wrote: post #8
adaml_623 wrote: post #6

Science PhD = Smart + willing to follow orders + conforming + able to focus on something for years. You'd be foolish not to hire one.

The best science PhDs are neither willing to follow orders nor conforming, but you're right about #1 and 4 :)

The best, sure, but the majority? I've seen many people in academia fall prey to the flaws and capriciousness of their advisors, so people often toe the line in order to minimize confrontation. And we haven't even taken into account the evil, corpulent morass that is the world of academic bureaucracy.

Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#28

Post by psyklic »

madcaptenor wrote: post #13
narkee wrote: post #4

So P(jobless|PhD) = 0.017, whereas P(jobless) = 0.066 According to Baye's Theorem, the P(PhD|jobless) = P(jobless|PhD)*P(PhD)/P(jobless) Where according to [1], P(PhD) = 0.01 (for all PhDs) so assuming roughly half are science, P(PhD) = 0.005, and we get P(PhD|jobless) = 0.0013, or 0.13%, which means that roughly 1 out of every 1000 jobless people has a PhD. [1] http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo…

But who cares about P(PhD|jobless)? P(jobless|PhD) is important; it's a measure of how much job security a PhD leads to. But P(PhD|jobless) is only important if you're a jobless PhD and you want to know what your chances of finding someone else who's survived grad school in the unemployment line. I wouldn't know how to interpret "1 out of every n jobless people has a PhD"; the first thing I'd ask is "what proportion…

Despite it's practicality, I for one enjoyed the statistic.

Re: Science PhDs Have Very Low Jobless Rates

#30

Post by geebee »

I'll probably read the whole article, but the first line of the abstract is already losing me:

"The unemployment rate for PhDs in science, engineering, and health is about one-fourth that of the general population."

Oh, come on, you're comparing this against the general population? People who get PhD's in these subjects are typically great high school students who get into good colleges, major in difficult subject matter with high attrition rates, score high on standardized tests, survive a highly selective admissions process to grad school, spend up to a decade in an immensely difficult academic program with astoundingly high attrition rates compared with elite medicine, dentistry, law, or mba programs, and do some unpaid postdoc work.

A low unemployment rate compared to the national average. Gee, now there's a good control group.

For a more sobering viewpoint, take a look at a recent RAND study about the employment prospects for scientists and engineers relative to professions:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html

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