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Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

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Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#181

Post by adamsea »

sokoloff wrote: post #159
mamon wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible, but it is also quite rare, and usually happens for higly paid, white collar jobs. I'm yet to meet, say, trash pickup guy that enjoys his job. EDIT: to clarify - it's not that I look down on any jobs. Trash pickup is very much needed profession. What I'm saying is: Let's say person wins a lottery and suddenly has all the money they need for the rest of their lives. I can imagine that many software deve…

I know plenty of tradespeople who enjoy their work and find value and some fulfillment in what they do. Do they love it like I love programming? Maybe; maybe not, but it seems possible.

True but tradespeople !== trash man or inkjet-printer factory worker (similar to example from an above post).

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#182

Post by hellllllllooo »

mxschumacher wrote: post #157

In reference to those low-paying retail jobs: I have done some research on large US retailers like J.C. Penney, Gamestop, Macy's, Sears and Tailored Brands. It's quite scary to see how dire the situation is for these firms. Shrinking revenues, plenty of debt, hardly any profit in sight. The most shocking to is the number of people they employ (more than 90k in the case of J.C. Penney), many of whom can be sure to be…

Walmart, Amazon and Target are doing fine and still pay low wages. I don't understand your point or choice of companies to list.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#183

Post by celdon25 »

behringer wrote: post #116
CivBase wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heath insurance is a benefit offered by some US employers as an alternative form of compensation. Employers get discounted rates because of how many customers they bring to the insurer and they pocket some of those savings while passing the rest on to the employees. You can get health insurance without having a job. It's expensive, but it's not like it's cheap through employers. Just cheap er . Health care - at least…

You can't get treatment for life-threatening "conditions". You can only get treatment for life-threatening "emergencies". You got a tumor? Good fucking luck. You got a seizure because of your tumor? Come on in and we'll make sure to send you an absurd bill later.

From a profit standpoint, the health industry (providers, not payers) have every incentive to delay care for chronic conditions until they can't get away with not doing it. Once a patient is sick enough, more resources and justification tends to be thrown against the insurers to pressure them to pay up, no matter the cost. One might recall Michael Moore's infamous protests for a dramatic example of this.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#184

Post by blihp »

jkoudys wrote: post #22

America has a weird sense of superiority about its lower unemployment numbers vs Canada. The difference is the US, you basically need a job, or else you're one broken ankle, complex childbirth, or infected hangnail away from complete financial ruin. People being able to take extra time to find the right job is a good thing for the economy. Better than being driven by an abject fear of not having a job.

Historically the unemployment rate has just been one indicator of how the economy is doing. All else being equal[1], economy A with 5% unemployment should be doing better than economy B with 10% unemployment, at least from a job seeker's standpoint.

The danger of being purely quantitatively driven by these historically useful metrics is that there is an absolute focus on keeping the numbers at the right level or moving in the right direction while simultaneously doing things that undercut the value of those metrics. In the previous century, falling unemployment numbers used to indicate that factory workers were returning to work at their old wage and benefits or better that new jobs were being created. However, today it often means that the factory worker who lost their job is now an Uber driver for a fraction of the pay. You used to see stories like 'factory X is bringing back Y thousand good paying jobs as it (re)opens a production line' now the story is 'unemployment is below 4%... shut up and like it'

[1] If all else isn't equal, whether comparing economy A to economy B or a previous version of itself, you are right it isn't a meaningful metric at all.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#185

Post by Miraste »

williamDafoe wrote: post #165

Unemployment is NOT very low. The government publicizes a fake unemployment number which includes a HUGE imaginary subtraction called "discouraged workers", which was originally imagined during the Clinton administration. To get a real idea about EMPLOYMENT, including those pesky minorities that Clinton excluded, see the employment population ratio, ages 25-54: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS12300060 When Obam…

That's still roughly tied for lowest ever.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#186

Post by bsanr2 »

k33n wrote: post #108
shkkmo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are jobs that you don't enjoy but that will help you achieve a better future. Then there are jobs that do nothing but provide a temporary stop gap from financial ruin. The idea isn't that you don't need a job, the idea is that you are less dependent on finding a job right away so that you can find a good fit between your skills and your goals and your job. This not only will lead to a better life for you, but m…

If working a job will prevent financial ruin, then it's a good job. No job has to be permanent.

There's no reason people should have to suffer "busy work" while they're looking for some place to be truly productive, just to assuage the grievances of Puritan work ethic folk.

"Any job" doesn't help people find stable work as well as training and a safety net do. SOME jobs provide this, but forcing people into jobs that don't is counterproductive. This is a common misunderstanding people have.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#187

Post by adamsea »

k33n wrote: post #108
shkkmo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are jobs that you don't enjoy but that will help you achieve a better future. Then there are jobs that do nothing but provide a temporary stop gap from financial ruin. The idea isn't that you don't need a job, the idea is that you are less dependent on finding a job right away so that you can find a good fit between your skills and your goals and your job. This not only will lead to a better life for you, but m…

If working a job will prevent financial ruin, then it's a good job. No job has to be permanent.

What if the job has terrible safety conditions and a high injury rate. Is it still good? I’m not arguing that it doesn’t provide some value if it staves off financial ruin, but, the world is composed of more than only “good” and “bad”. If it wasn’t things would be so simple that sites like HN would not exist.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#188

Post by onion2k »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #64

I tend to think work gives some sense of purpose to a person’s life. That’s incalculably valuable.

If you like your job that's a very useful benefit.

If you don't like your job and you don't think it's actually worthwhile it serves as a reminder that you're wasting your potential, and that can be incredibly detrimental.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#189

Post by retrac »

pytester wrote: post #102
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #64

I tend to think work gives some sense of purpose to a person’s life. That’s incalculably valuable.

This was why when Argentina swapped out a job guarantee (plan jefes) with a UBI-type program, many of the women who did the job guarantee jobs of caring for the elderly, etc. kept doing the work in spite of the government telling them it wasn't "necessary" any more. While it's theoretically possible that they might have spontaneously started doing these jobs if a UBI program had been initiated I'm not aware of any ex…

Yes. Many types of extremely valuable work in our society is not valued by the market and so is not compensated.

Caring for the elderly, caring for children, my elderly neighbour who sometimes picks up trash on the street, etc.

There are all kinds of crucial work our society desperately needs done, but which are often not even conceptualized as work because there's no wage attached to it.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#190

Post by jellicle »

seanmccann wrote: post #155
sanj wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is flatly incorrect. The Canadian healthcare system doesn’t even have the concept of “pre-existing condition”. That term is deeply flawed and was constructed by the healthcare insurance system in the USA. The term used in Canada is “medical history”. I’m at an age where I’m watching my friends in Canada deal with family suffering from long term illnesses and ultimately, death. They all deal with anguish, grief,…

Perhaps my error was in saying that the specific conditions that the OP listed would result in financial ruin. My experience is anecdotal from close relatives in Alberta having severe diseases early in life. Their drugs and "required care" was expensive and not entirely covered by their private insurance. Their private insurance had caps (annual and/or lifetime), and after, their medical history made it difficult or…

In general in Canada, any care you receive at a hospital or doctor's office is free to you. However, drugs you purchase at your local pharmacy are at your own expense. The provinces all have plans to cover drugs in certain situations (for children, for the elderly, for diabetics, etc.) but they do not provide complete coverage. Employers typically offer prescription drug insurance to employees.

Some people with chronic conditions that fall through the various provincial drug plans are spending fair chunks of money on prescription drugs that may be necessary for them to have a good life.

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