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Paris syndrome

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Re: Paris syndrome

#51

Post by viscanti »

pen2l wrote: post #33
rayiner wrote: post #10

I thought the people in Paris were surprisingly nice. (I speak a bit of French, and in my experience people were very friendly if you at least tried to communicate in French to begin with.) That said, Parisian bathrooms give me nightmares. The only place outside of Bangladesh where I’ve seen squat toilets.

Squat toilets permit a straighter path for stool to pass through: https://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/20180115/02/r-m-hiro/8f/e2... Here is a study that confirms this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870773 Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them. I'm level B1, what level would you say you are/how many years of instruction hav…

> Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them.

I've found this to be the case too. But their English is almost always better than my French. I've found that attempting French does produce a much more friendly response than just going in an speaking English loudly.

Re: Paris syndrome

#52

Post by jacobush »

mechnesium wrote: post #46
ivanbakel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP is probably being down voted for the racist dogwhistle in their comment.

I’m guessing that you didn’t read the Wikipedia article. Here’s the direct quote pertaining to appearance. “Renoux indicates that Japanese media, magazines in particular, often depict Paris as a place where most people on the street look like "stick-thin" models and most women dress in high fashion brands such as Louis Vuitton.” Your personal biases made you assume the previous commenter strictly implied race/color.

No, it was speculation the downvoters assumed that.

By the way, why do you assume bsaul read the article then?

(I'm not saying bsaul didn't, but you are assuming bsaul did and ivanbakel didn't read the article.)

Re: Paris syndrome

#53

Post by GrayTextIsTruth »

quicklime wrote: post #44
GrayTextIsTruth wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would you "expect" the French to look like Like French, like Europeans. Must France be a “melting pot” too? Why do Americans project so much?

I'm not an American, but I think that France should be a melting pot because of its colonial history. Many immigrants in Paris who "don't look French" are from former colonies that still speak French to some extent. Keeping Paris white would be denying part of France's history.

The immigrants still have a home country. What you're advocating is French genocide.

how about just paying reparations to those countries instead of destroying all the French villages that had nothing to do with the kings colonizing.

I see the French Revolution basically as a bankruptcy where they were freed from the debts incurred by the royalty.

Re: Paris syndrome

#54

Post by core-questions »

claudiawerner wrote: post #31
core-questions wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>if you're Japanese or Israeli or hail from any number of other single-ethnicity states, you're totally A-OK to advocate for all of the same things the French want in their nation, without any accusations at all. I love how often I see this statement, then I realize it doesn't apply to me. Absolutely the same standards I hold for my own country, the French, etc. I hold for the Isrealis and the Japanese. Why should ra…

> Why should racism and xenophobia be OK because it's happening in Japan or Israel?

Look at you, you're doing the exact same thing that I said you would. Racist! Xenophobe! These are the terms levelled at anyone that doesn't want the streets of Paris to look like the streets of Mogadishu, as though there's no middle ground whatsoever.

No chance to think about ideas like bringing people in at a rate that doesn't exceed some sense of "cultural carrying capacity", no chance to work more on helping refugees in their homelands, no chance to suggest that legal immigrants who are going through the process deserve to have that respected in comparison to illegal ones who jump the line. Nope, it's xenophobia to dare to want anything other than the status quo, which we'll all pretend is working (it isn't).

Please, if you believe what you've said, why not spend a little bit of time advocating for open borders and multiculturalism for Israel, and see how far you get with your liberal ideals. Go and live as close to the newcomers as you can and enjoy the new pace of life. Pretend that it's all okay, and that anyone who wants a slightly different approach to this sensitive issue is evil. I promise nothing bad will happen.

Re: Paris syndrome

#55

Post by jacobush »

GrayTextIsTruth wrote: post #19
ivanbakel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People are absolutely not what you’d expect french to look like ( and i’m not talking about size)" What would you "expect" the French to look like, that they do not look like in Paris (while cities in Europe are all much more non-white than the countryside, which for the commenter does not have the same problem)? This is a dogwhistle.

> What would you "expect" the French to look like Like French, like Europeans. Must France be a “melting pot” too? Why do Americans project so much?

French is very much not a race, and France was very much forged in a melting pot, celts, romans, franks, vikings (the latter both germanic but not exactly the same) etc etc.

Re: Paris syndrome

#56

Post by glennpratt »

We went to Paris in a rainy November, took public transit exclusively and stayed in a building with an elevator that could fit one suitcase, by itself, and a shower about the same size. We saw some homelessness and scams.

And yet it was absolutely lovely. I could talk endlessly about the people, the sites, the food (and hardly just French food) and the museums. I'm sort of dumbfounded at people who can't see that.

No one was rude to us, even outside of tourist areas, mostly just professional.

Of course it's not Disneyland. We had to learn language basics, checkout travel books and scour the internet. I think this gave us rational expectations.

Semi-related, I live in Portland, OR which has a similar climate, possibly similar civic challenges and interestingly, a similar fascination from Japan.

https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/

Oregon even uses Japanese style animation in ads, presumably because of that.

https://m.youtube.com/user/oregon

Re: Paris syndrome

#57

Post by douglasmurray12 »

lifeformed wrote: post #35
GrayTextIsTruth wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply pointing out that an iconic city in EUROPE has a large amount of non-Europeans is a dogwhistle? Parisian culture is all but dead and it’s a tragedy.

Not just pointing it out, but putting it in a list of extreme negatives to the city.

Japan is a fairly ethnically and culturally homogeneous country. It is natural that they would expect Parisians to look and behave a certain way. When they don't, it is of course a big negative to many visitors - they come to Paris expecting a certain look and feel, a certain atmosphere and culture, but they are getting something else.

You do not need to be from Japan to feel that way when visiting Paris either. And I do not see anything wrong with pointing that out.

Re: Paris syndrome

#58

Post by leftyted »

ivanbakel wrote: post #28
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, you are reading subtexts in the original post that are clearly not there. The sensible interpretation is that Parisians don't look like the stereotype that non-French have: https://www.google.com/search?q=stereotypical+frenchman&tbm=...

This is a slightly ridiculous position if it is taken genuinely - just look at the other comments in this thread complaining about "melting pots" and "cultural erasure". More to the point - dogwhistles are meant to give subtexts with plausible deniability. That you can find an alternative meaning for them is precisely their intent. It is not a compelling argument to claim that the original commenter was, in fact, inn…

I have a fantasy of Paris as a city of beautiful, elegant people, effortlessly fashionable who walk from outdoor cafe to outdoor cafe where they order espresso and croissants while carrying baguettes under their arms. So when I read the original comment, that (admittedly childish) impression came to mind.

The fact that other people immediate jumped to "melting pots" and "cultural erasure" doesn't indicate that that's what the original comment was referring to.

> More to the point - dogwhistles are meant to give subtexts with plausible deniability. That you can find an alternative meaning for them is precisely their intent.

Human communication is difficult. The original comment wasn't specific and so it acted as a rorschach test. It isn't possible to know what the original poster meant without asking.

> It is not a compelling argument to claim that the original commenter was, in fact, innocent - you should instead be able to absolve them beyond all doubt.

No. It isn't possible to "absolve someone of all doubt" when the accusation is "vague racist dog whistle". You have to deal with uncertainty in these situations and your inability to do that, to understand that the meaning of a sentence as intended by the author is almost always partially undefined and open to interpretation, is seriously disturbing.

Re: Paris syndrome

#59

Post by wozniacki »

Not to put too fine a point, but is this the Paris you've encountered?[1] [2]

Do you expect others who've visited Paris to come away with quite a different perception, even being in the same places you were in or objectively no?

[1]

The Streets of Paris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Js8wntdk4

[2]

Is My "Paris Streets" Video Fake News?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iw1_Zakbb0

Re: Paris syndrome

#60

Post by douglasmurray12 »

frostburg wrote: post #23
GrayTextIsTruth wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would you "expect" the French to look like Like French, like Europeans. Must France be a “melting pot” too? Why do Americans project so much?

Nobody forced the French to colonize a significant portion of the world, by the way.

But what Paris has become is not somehow a direct consequence of colonialism. Those were two separate decisions, and should be criticized and judged separately.
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