Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 • Hacker News Board

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#231

Post by ProAm » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

rory096 wrote: post #194

ProAm wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's makes urban sidewalks look like they are strewn with litter. It's the reason why Im glad to see they are banned. They make walkable cities less walkable.

This is a myopic view. In my city's experience, when infrastructure like parking corrals are provided scooter users tend to behave properly. When there's nowhere to leave your scooter except to balance them in a 5-inch space parallel to the curb, they become disruptive. The solution is to reallocate a minimal quantity of the vast space in our cities we currently designate for the exclusive use of automobiles, not to…

It's not shortsighted but definitely an opinion formed relative to my opinion and observations. But that's what all comments are. That solution might work in your city, but each of these scooter riders did not take one car off the street so it likely will not work in most cities. I agree there is a solution but don't feel well ever find one in discussion on HN, a much to biased audience.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#232

Post by et2o » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

rainyMammoth wrote: post #227

Symbiote wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everyone means an electric kick scooter, not the vehicles in Vietnam - those are motor scooters.

Which I also find a weird language abuse. The original meaning of "scooter" is the vehicle in Vietnam. Why did we suddenly agree to call those "kick scooters" as "scooters". This is even more confusing for companies like "scoot" that rent both "scooters" and "kick scooters"

They have called these things scooters for over twenty years at this point.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#233

Post by Tiktaalik » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

rory096 wrote: post #96

Curious how many of the scooter-haters in this thread drive cars daily. In my experience they're a huge boon to walkable, car-free or car-lite lifestyles, and all but useless in the suburban parking-minimum wastelands that characterize most of the United States' postwar built environment.

I'm an urbanist but pretty meh on the scooter concept.

Publicly owned bike share with a network of stations does all the same things as scooters but with a lot less drama.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#234

Post by goobynight » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

Hasz wrote: post #127

This whole model is incredibly, impossibly, flawed. 9/10 times, my net displacement for the day is 0. If my net displacement is zero, I would prefer to own the medium I'm using to move. Bike, car, scooter etc. Only exception is stuff with really high capital costs, like planes and trains, in which case I pay a small fee to avoid owning a railway or airline. For scooters, there are no high capitals costs; the cost of…

Net displacement doesn't matter. Convenience and features do.

We have to fully admit that, all else equal, being responsible for the security and maintenance of a scooter is worse than offloading that to Lime/Lyft/Bird.

The only reason I bought a scooter is because I wanted to go over 30mph with suspension (i.e. new features). I use mine for joyriding and secure it in my apartment.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#235

Post by streblo » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #174

vkou wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if scooters could be parked for free on nearly any curb, like cars, you wouldn't be stepping over them.

Where on earth do you have to pay for scooter parking? Scooter parking is free. Slamming them down sideways without using a kick stand is free unless a cop sees you.

Riders don't have to pay for them, but the scooter operators sure do.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#236

Post by mantas » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

megablast wrote: post #206

mantas wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't need , but it's still damn handy. And a "well-designed city" is usually based on assumption that all people are +/- identical. Well, guess what, different people have different preferences... Source: european

Sure, but also incredibly dangerous, costly, polluting and selfish.

Human life in general causes danger, costs, polluting and is selfish.

Meanwhile I find "well designed city" environment bad to my mental health. Who (or what?) is it "well designed" for?

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#237

Post by sparkling » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

> Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market?

Can a eScooter business be run in a profitable way? I think yes.

Are these companies going to ever make back money for their investors? Probably not.

> Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive

The retail price for these Scooters is $400-800, depending on the exact hardware. I assume these companies are not paying retail prices but have a sweet deal with some Chinese manufacturer, maybe paying $500-ish for a mid-tier model. Really not that expensive.

In Europe most firms are charging 1 Euro to start the eScooter and then additional 15ct per minute. In my opinion this is more than enough to make a decent profit. There are profitable car sharing companies here that let you rent a car for effectively 25-35cents per hour - that is including gas. So somehow, these car sharing companies that have huge upfront costs for purchasing the cars (30-40x more than a eScooter), high maintenance costs, annual registration fees, insurance costs etc. are turning a profit despite charing only a few cents more than the eScooter companies.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#238

Post by piffey » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #228

robrenaud wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah, but public transit is inherently the slowest option. This isn't true if you are in a dense city with good public transit. This is currently mid day (3 PM), and it's about 30% faster (21 minutes vs 29 minutes) to go from my current location in Manhattan to a bar I enjoy hanging out in Brooklyn via public transit than car, according to Google Maps. It would be even better around rush hour.

New York City is perhaps the only major city in the US where public transit is indeed faster than individual modes transportation (scooter, car, bike, whatever).

This all is heavily dependent on how you align your day to day life. If you set up your work and living situation along the LA Subway or BART or Seattle's Link Light Rail then you'll always be able to get there faster using those services. Even in NYC you can end up in places that are a bit of transit wastelands that take longer to get to than by car.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#239

Post by jordank » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

One factor missing from most analyses of scooter companies are the sheer cost of insuring scooters long term. Insurance rates are likely based on the assumption that scooter companies can disclaim against any user damages (injury, death, etc) but companies can't disclaim against gross negligence and there are many, many legal actions against Lime and other scooter companies (disclaimer/source: I'm a plaintiff in one of these actions).

Failure rates are known to be fairly high and accidents are common [1]. I was on a Lime that had a brake failure and I was pretty badly injured. Lime themselves have indicated that the failure rate was around .00045%, but that's still 450 brake failures per million rides [2].

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/scooter-use-... [2] https://www.li.me/blog/safety-update-february-2019

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#240

Post by spondyl » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

Purely anecdotal but in my mind, one of the biggest barriers would be public sentiment?

I remember when Lime launched here in New Zealand and suddenly, all of these scooters appeared on the footpaths. Over time, they would go from nice, neat rows of four to being discarded on the pavement, becoming obstacles to walk around.

Obviously, it's the customers who have left them strewn on the pavement but in my mind, I associate that untidiness with Lime. Without their business, there wouldn't be scooters freely available to be left lying around.

Anyway, personally, I'm glad to see Lime and all of the other scooter businesses go away. It felt like more of a fad that would go away but I say that not having used one either. I'd rather walk and listen to some podcasts.

On a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed this talk about e-scooter security from Matthew Garrett last year:

Part 1: https://youtu.be/wU5ghVvwfGE Part 2: https://youtu.be/BMQnxugfwUI