Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100 • Hacker News Board

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#111

Post by netsharc » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

naravara wrote: post #109

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

>I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to maintain any profitability, and the demand already sucks. I suspect if you price in other externalities it would be even worse. Those things are flimsy trash that are meant to be utterly disposable. You can barely service or replace something as simple as a broken wheel. If these things ever did actually take off it would have been an ecological catas…

In my city (Zurich) it already feels like an environmental disaster, with 5 or 6 scooter companies jumping into the market, there's probably more scooters on offer than there is demand.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#112

Post by vkou » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #63

Good riddance from Atlanta. The City had to start fining people to get the scooters off the sidewalks. When I worked in midtown I’d have to step over scooters lying on the streets.

Maybe if scooters could be parked for free on nearly any curb, like cars, you wouldn't be stepping over them.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#113

Post by tempsy » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

wow I'm really surprised to see San Diego on the list of "underperforming" markets that was cut. seems like a huge red flag for the industry if that's true.

no city have I been to had more scooters everywhere than San Diego. and the city has been very accommodating in the sense that they created designated scooter parking areas. it's almost the perfect city for scooters: almost always warm/sunny, very flat, not great public transportation infra.

left wondering what happened.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#114

Post by giobox » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

jeffnappi wrote: post #80

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

I think e-bikes in certain markets will be profitable as a division of bigger organizations like Uber/Lyft. For example I spent $6 on two JUMP bike rentals last night to get to and from a Meetup. It was convenient and the bikes did the job handily. As a company that only does the bike share, I don't think they will be able to compete with the likes of Uber/Lyft etc.

I used to be bullish on ebikes for commuting, until I started buying secondhand ones barely a few months old on craigslist at steep discounts for my own family.

In every case, the owner had a change of heart and switched to a scooter. Why? Because the ebike is huge and heavy, needs dedicated locking, parking etc. Often there isn't room for it on the bus/train. They all found the scooter way better for last mile style commutes.

Scooters are a fraction of the cost, capable of similar speed and range with less user effort and have virtually no maintenance. You can carry them easily into an office, and they weigh a fraction of a typical ebike. They fit much more easily into trains and buses. Long term, I think last mile commuting will surely be won by a scooter style machine.

I still think ebikes have a huge role to play in future of transport, but I don't think it will be last mile commutes as much as some expect.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#115

Post by asdff » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

wufufufu wrote: post #66

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

> Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive Citation needed, at least to convince me. I think they could significantly bring down the cost at scale (production/maintenance wise at least).

They cost $300. Maybe bird gets them for $200. Even if you cut the cost down to $100, that's still $100 a month per scooter to run the network.

https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#116

Post by vkou » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #28

bransonf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll try to do the math here. Assuming the following: Cost to buy: $500 Cost to charge $0.40/day (maybe generous) Cost to Rent: $2/day Rental Mileage: $0.15/min Assume 10mph average, (10 miles/day) $9/day Total: $11/day to rent 2x/week,50 weeks 100 days (200 rides): Buy: $540 Rent: $1100 No way it’s economical to rent scooters routinely. Even if you break your scooter every 6 months, you can still save by buying a ne…

I think the advantage of rental is the ability to drop off or pick up anywhere -- you can ride a scooter to the office, walk or bus to a restaurant after work, then rent a different scooter home. Or you might take a scooter from work to the restaurant, and you don't need to worry about parking the rental scooter securely or carrying it around with you. But that only works if scooters are ubiquitous enough that you ca…

The thing is, there's no reason why my wife can't take the scooter with her, into the office. It's not like she's riding a moped, or even a bicycle!

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#117

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

> Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market?

I recall a study in Paris last year (iirc) in which they concluded that the useful life of these scooters was shorter than their individual rental break even points...

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#118

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

[deleted]

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#119

Post by cjones26 » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

notknifescience wrote: post #55

jeffnappi wrote: post #21

Lime has the worst bikes on the planet - they are complete garbage compared to the Uber/JUMP bikes (and probably others). The Lime bikes seemed to constantly be falling apart and were actually pretty terrifying to ride. On the other hand, the JUMP bikes feel very robust and I feel safe riding them. I would rather walk half a mile to find a JUMP bike than ride a Lime bike. No wonder they are failing. Source: Rode both…

Totally agree with this. Lime bikes were garbage (I have not tried their newer redesigned ones, since I swore Lime off). I had a Lime bike literally snap in half at the joint where the handlebars connect to the riding platform WHILE I was riding it. It flung me forward in to the street. Luckily no traffic around. I contacted support and they offered to reimburse me for the ride. No indication they were treating it se…

I will no longer give Lime any business after I hopped on a scooter with 30% battery and it died within less than 5 minutes. I was late for work, and my only option was to unlock another Lime scooter after the first died, costing me extra $ for the unlock. I communicated this to their support team and they refused to give me a refund, telling me that I should check the battery life before getting on a scooter (shouldn't 30% enough to go 1.5 miles?)...I expressed my frustration to the survey following up the support and still no refund for the unlock fee. It may seem silly, but that was the straw that broke the camel's back and I uninstalled the app.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#120

Post by disordinary » Thu, Jan 09, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

notJim wrote: post #60

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

From what I've read, the main driver of profitability is longevity of the scooters, and they've already made a lot of progress extending that. > In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. The report I read stated that if longevity could be extended (which is already being worked on, per above…

In Wellington, New Zealand Uber (Jump) replaced their entire scooter fleet a few weeks ago after just six months of operation, their main competitor (Flamingo) will probably have to do the same as their scooters now look worn and tired vs the Jump ones. Lime has been booted out of a couple of markets locally as they had safety issues, all those scooters are probably in a land fill somewhere.