Earlier quoted context omitted.
The game industry will do just fine with a union presence. It won't die. Solo game developers will feel no union pressure, nor will small teams. If there are triple-A studios that are so fragile that they'll go under with their employees getting better working conditions, I will shed no tear for those. I will shed no tear for any employer whose continued business success depends on working staff 80, 120 hours a week,…
That is the dream that we can unionize without it becoming an all-encompassing force. Hollywood has not experienced that.
Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
481–490 of 513 posts
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#482Earlier quoted context omitted.
I generally agree. What we do need is better worker protections and consumer protections. Get rid of no-competes. Get rid of right to work statutes. Add mandatory retirement contributions. Add mandatory and standard severance packages.
> Get rid of right to work statutes. Meaning that you're fine with me being required to join a union in order to work? No. I'd rather have the freedom to choose for myself, even if it means I have to give the same freedom to others.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#483Earlier quoted context omitted.
Employers tend to be a lot more hostile to unions in the US. This manifests with deliberately spread FUD about unions (e.g. the ridiculous Walmart video), covert attempts to sabotage, depiction of schoolteachers as terrorists (by the Kentucky governor) and, in one rather extreme case, aerial bombardment of striking workers.
Beyond that, you can’t really compare US unions to European ones because of the virulent anti-communism of US politics. In Europe, following the war, left wing coalitions of socialists, communists, and left liberals secured major parliamentary victories for workers. In the US, by contrast, sector-wide bargaining was banned, strikes were limited, and anyone with vaguely Marxist sympathies was purged from politics, the…
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#484Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best…
A labor union gives union leaders bargaining ability. Even if we assume that leaders are properly aligned with the employees as a whole, which is not something I think can be taken for granted, I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is.
Your bargaining power comes from leverage, and your only real leverage is that you can go work for some other company.
A labor union's bargaining power comes from numbers of it's members.
Certainly that can and has lead to abuse, but that is no different than what can happen with business.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#485Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is This is precisely the situation that most non-unionized workers already have, except that no one is even nominally trying to advocate for their interests. The theory that corporations should be beholden exclusively to shareholders and not to all stakeholders took over completely, and has failed work…
How does anyone say that the US tech industry has “failed workers spectacularly” with a straight face? If any industry has not failed the workers, it’s the tech industry. The idea that some union rep can negotiate a better outcome for me than I can is, frankly, pretty laughable.
What is your employer match for your 401k?
What is your annual deductible for health insurance for yourself? For your partner? Kids?
How large is your pension fund? Terms?
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#486Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're missing the point. The point is that the large majority of these developers are choosing this line of work, not being forced into it. Including the long hours and frequently lower than average pay. Any comparisons to slavery or child labor are an insult to all those who actually suffer(ed) under those conditions.
You’re missing the point, which is that failing to act for fear of “increased costs” is a poor justification for being satisfied with a status quo. And just because people currently are satisfied with mistreatment doesn’t mean it’s not worthy of change. Whether if that change comes from unions, or from the companies themselves.
> ..failing to act for fear of “increased costs” is a poor justification for being satisfied with a status quo.
Saying this is about "increased costs" is a gross oversimplification of my position. Personally I don't care much about what the costs are for these companies; I'm more interested in what things will be affected by changing those costs. If SW dev talent is made more expensive for game companies (for whatever reason), then fewer SW devs will be employed there than would otherwise have been. Now this may or may not be a good thing, but it does seem like a very likely and unintended effect.
> And just because people currently are satisfied with mistreatment doesn’t mean it’s not worthy of change.
If they don't like it, the particular people in question are literally free to stop putting up with it at pretty much any time! We're talking about people with very marketable skills working in a relatively thriving industry. Here I'm speaking of all software, not just games, since most skills of SW devs working on games are useful in other kinds of SW as well. If more of them chose to not put up with such mistreatment, then game companies would be forced to increase compensation and/or improve the work environment in order to find people to work for them.
That's a point I keep trying to make. It's easy to see that the status quo sucks; understanding why requires more consideration. There is a reason why these adverse conditions are more common in the games industry than in other areas of SW dev, and that reason is that there are a lot of people who want to work on games compared to other kinds of SW dev work. Having worked in games myself, I can think of a few reasons for this:
* Games are fun to play (well, ideally).
* There is a great variety of different kinds of technical problems that need to be solved in a typical game: graphics, sound, collision detection, network communication, performance, all manner of different kinds of custom development tools, to name just a few. Personally I always liked this aspect.
* There is definitely a certain cachet to being able to tell people that you work on games, and even more so if it's a game they know of. I know it may sound a bit far fetched, but don't underestimate this one.
If unionization were to achieve the goals of better working conditions and/or higher pay, then one would expect demand for gamedev jobs to increase further, but certainly not to decrease.
Now perhaps you would argue that regardless of all the above, game developers shouldn't have to put up with those adverse conditions, that they should get to work in their field of choice without having to work long hours for relatively lower pay. I totally agree that that is a very fine goal. I simply ask you to consider that 1) unionization does not address the underlying cause, namely the surplus demand for gamedev jobs and 2) trying to force these changes via unionization will have unintended consequences, namely fewer jobs. The benefits (better working conditions) are obvious but the costs are much more diffuse and much less obvious.
In short, the best way to refute my concerns about the unintended consequence of lower SW dev employment in a post-unionization game industry would be to show that either a) it won't happen or b) the benefits for those who have a job outweigh the loss of jobs that would have existed but don't. Personally I think a is very unlikely to be true, so I think it's really down to b: is it better or worse (and for whom) to have fewer, better jobs?
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#487Earlier quoted context omitted.
The most cursory thing an employer can do is Google an prospective employee, and that will bring up title credits on games you've worked on. If you were to Google my name, for instance, as I don't have any social media presence other than LinkedIn, you only get game titles I'm in the credits of.
But it's a silly system. As a corporate worker I have no social media presence, so you won't find anything I've ever worked on. Instead I have a resume and references which can be checked to determine if what I'm saying is true. Now being able to do that automatically is great, which means we should just take the whole process on our own hands as software developers and create something that represents us?
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#488Earlier quoted context omitted.
So jahaja raised the question, "What do you have to lose?" (by unionizing). And in response, Kalium said, "Our industry". That is, unionization often raises costs for companies (better pay, fewer hours and more benefits cost), and those costs could result in fewer jobs. jahaja replied that "this doesn't hold up to a straight forward comparison to many European countries. If labour costs would be so detrimental to emp…
I did however say "many countries" not Europe as a whole. Since there's vast differences both in unionization and recent economic developments. There's clear and obvious reasons why for example Greece is where they are. I mean, if unionization (and in the end high labour costs) really significantly hurt the economy and employment numbers it would be trivial to see through comparisons and we would already empirically…
Best I could find: Union rates: France 8.8%, Germany 16.5%, UK 23.4%, US 10.1%. Unemployment: France 8.9%, Germany 3.3%, UK 3.8%, US 3.5%. I must admit, that doesn't look much like correlation.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#489Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't think that good times are forever. It never hurts to join a union even when things are fair.
That's saying that being in a union is cost-free. I suspect it's not. There's usually dues of some kind, and if you're in a union shop the rules may be less flexible - not just for the company, but for you. And the rules being less flexible for the company may have consequences for you. That said, insurance costs, too, but most of us have it...
The whole point of a union is so that the benefits outweigh the costs but the actual benefits are hard to measure experimentally.
I would say anecdotally that in the majority of cases it's worth it, but the perception is biased towards it being not worth it.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#490Earlier quoted context omitted.
They also have the incentive make those things happen. The boss doesn't. The boss has incentive cut costs and increase profits. Even if the current boss is good person, the next one might not be. Situation might change the boss might go after workers to save profits. We aren't on the same side of the table. Look at Google. Good job, stable, good pay, solid benefits. Sounds great. They were also engaged in massive wag…
Some of the biggest companies in the American tech space value things other than money as the highest priority. Steve Jobs famously was product focused and warned against excessive greed. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/664366-if-you-keep-your-eye... Elon Musk poured his own money into his projects to the point of becoming bankrupt and was helped out by others who believed in the product. Cutting costs is the antith…
Elon Musk will probably die an obscenely wealthy man.
Every billionaire has a plan to save the world. None of them involve paying taxes.