Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#201

Post by throwaway5752 » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:10 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

1. Using revenue comparison is incorrect. Profit is more complicated because you have to add back in compensation (and if necessary be able to know when r&d comp is capitalized and be able to break out r&d versus sg&a if you only talking about comp for particular groups of employees) but it is the correct per-employee stat to compare.

2. Median employee salary is wrong, you should look at average salary if you are comparing it to an average (revenue) figure.

3. You should correct for benefits and taxes. I don't know what they are, but salary is only part of the cost of an employee.

I know you are trying to make a quick point, but FB has margins ~40% and all-in employee costs can be 50% higher than salary. Assuming the median comp is close to average, then it's possible FB is making appr. $700K or so per employee in profit and paying out appr. $300K which doesn't sound quite as bad.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#202

Post by uerobert » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:10 PM UTC

mempko wrote: post #139

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Strange, actors, writer, and others in Hollywood are part of a union and they somehow get multi-million-dollar pay...

Most do not get multi-million-dollar pay, hell a lot of people there barely make a living. The reason there is an union there is because a lot of those same people would work for free to get a chance at making it in the industry (interns don't get paid), that is highly exploitable.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#203

Post by scarejunba » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:13 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

I don't think anyone is arguing that you shouldn't freely associate. Facebook employees who want to collectively bargain should be allowed to. That's just free association. They just shouldn't be allowed to prevent other employees from not unionizing and working without the union.

And then, lots of people can choose not to unionize. Personally, I think few FBers will unionize.

And then perhaps you could negotiate percentage of gross revenue if you wanted. But they could choose not to give you that. So long as we have free association, that's fine.

Personally, I don't think "percent of gross" makes sense unless you're a founder and "percent of marginal gross" is near impossible to calculate so probably not that. I far prefer the market for labour and employment.

You know how people say "it's not that you can't find engineers; you can't find engineers at what you're willing to pay". Well, if you can find engineers, then all is well.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#204

Post by lawnchair_larry » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #188

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s still an important example, because a union would not have allowed John Carmack to exist, and we would have none of his fruits. If you read Masters of Doom, it will be obvious why.

Yeah, a union definitely would have meant that half a dozen friends couldn't quit their employer and go work for themselves . That's definitely how it works. Because unions are slavery. Why are you bad-faithing your way around this entire discussion?

I’m not. You are making a sarcastic comment to attack straw man claims that nobody made. I think that’s bad faith.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#205

Post by SamReidHughes » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

They aren't extracting money from the employees. Edit: and you're comparing revenue. FFS. Shouldn't the power company's employees also get a share of Facebook's profits, because they wouldn't be able to run their website without electricity?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#206

Post by esoterica » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

Revenue isn’t income. Much of that $1.6 million goes towards paying suppliers and contractors and landlords and isn’t available for employee compensation.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#207

Post by ApolloFortyNine » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #131

How Americans can be so anti-union by default is really beyond me when looking at the facts at the ground: * A culture of overwork (especially in the game industry). * No vacation. * No parental leave. * No sick leave. * At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's…

You are making seriously sweeping allegations, could you not? It's hard to have a serious discussion when someone goes generalizing 300 million people and all of their jobs.

>* No vacation.

>* No parental leave.

>* No sick leave.

All three of these are provided, I don't have a union.

>At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's already illegal!", very few people are willing/capable of mounting a messy legal case on their own).

It's 2020, any allegation of sexual harassment is treated incredibly seriously across the board. Yea, I have no doubt it's a major headache. But an accusation of sexual harassment is a serious thing, it shouldn't be something we ever allow to be filled out anonymously, thrown in a complaint box, and assumed as true. It could lead to a firing and possibly criminal charges, lets not try and pretend that's not serious.

Part of why your comment bothers me so is that you are generalizing all Americans. The game industry may make sense to have a union, but you simply call out all Americans as being anti-union, as if it's something unfathomable. Different professions have different circumstances, not all of them need a union.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#208

Post by bluGill » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

proc0 wrote: post #121

I thought unions were for low skilled workers that are easily replaceable. If you do this with higher level skill jobs, I think there is a strong risk of stagnating the growth of the industry by forcing companies to hire a certain way. Higher skill jobs are already in a position of good compensation and companies understand those employees are valuable. This includes programmers and such, but perhaps not artists (unf…

Unions are for high skill jobs where there is worker solidarity. If you are low skill your attempt to unionize will be met by strikebreakers happy to take your job. If you don't have worker solidarity you cannot unionize because those who feel they are better won't want the inability of the lesser to pull them down.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#209

Post by jahaja » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:15 PM UTC

friendlybus wrote: post #183

ianmobbs wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Striking out on their own is the benefit I am talking about. So are you saying we should keep employees overworked and underpaid so they're more likely to leave their current employer...?

I am saying that running your own show or a show with other people you value working with does not need to be under the thumb of union rules or overarching corporate pressure. There is no scenario in entertainment where unions "keep to themselves". A union started will soak up the entire industry and now my show with people I respect, admire and fair equity shares now has time limits and controls none of us decided o…

> Implementing a union will benefit few but the union leaders.

What the heck? This sounds like something out of a movie. Do you think union leaders get a cut of every member's pay or something?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#210

Post by username90 » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:18 PM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #209

friendlybus wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am saying that running your own show or a show with other people you value working with does not need to be under the thumb of union rules or overarching corporate pressure. There is no scenario in entertainment where unions "keep to themselves". A union started will soak up the entire industry and now my show with people I respect, admire and fair equity shares now has time limits and controls none of us decided o…

> Implementing a union will benefit few but the union leaders. What the heck? This sounds like something out of a movie. Do you think union leaders get a cut of every member's pay or something?

> Do you think union leaders get a cut of every member's pay or something?

Isn't this exactly what happens? You pay the union a percentage of your salary, which is then used to among other things pay union leaders salaries. And just to note, union leaders typically earn a lot more than union members, making this transaction regressive in nature.