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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#181

Post by jakelazaroff »

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth?

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2...

[2] https://www.businessinsider.com/tech-companies-revenue-emplo...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#182

Post by topkai22 »

criddell wrote: post #101
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Not if you understand how unions work. Professional sports leagues have unions because they are necessary. There is exactly 1 league, and you’re required to sign exclusivity contracts with your team. You are owned by your team. You play for them, or you don’t play at all. You move your family to whatever shitty city bought your rights. Only rarely does a player get any say, unless they’re a superstar with a speci…

> There are many reasons for players to have unions, and none of them apply to software developers. There are analogs to some of the things you listed. For example, exclusivity contracts sounds a lot like non-compete agreements. You play for them, or you don't play at all sound like employment agreements where the employer demands rights to everything you create during your time of employment. You move your family to…

Not really- non-compete agreements are very hard to enforce in many jurisdictions, and even where enforceable are limited in scope- you might be able to go from working on a check clearing system at one company to another company working on a check clearing system, but going from working on a check clearing system to working on software for medical equipment is going to be OK. Also, unions may not necessarily be interested in ending non-compete- they have a vested interest on keeping union employees within union employers.

Your other two examples are completely different- while your statements are true for a single given employer, there are plenty of other employers out there willing to pay a roughly comparable wage. If you want to a side gig and your current employer won't allow it, you can start submitting resumes. If you don't want to transfer, you can start applying to other companies in your current location, or go for remote work. There is no equivalent in sport- US Professional sport leagues have a monopoly exemption approved by congress.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#183

Post by friendlybus »

ianmobbs wrote: post #165
friendlybus wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a game dev. Disappointing to see this reaction. Here's a direct example of union rules slowing down the little guy in film: https://youtu.be/LRVwlif6th0?t=171 Striking out on their own is the benefit I am talking about. I don't understand your perspective of independence.

> Striking out on their own is the benefit I am talking about. So are you saying we should keep employees overworked and underpaid so they're more likely to leave their current employer...?

I am saying that running your own show or a show with other people you value working with does not need to be under the thumb of union rules or overarching corporate pressure.

There is no scenario in entertainment where unions "keep to themselves". A union started will soak up the entire industry and now my show with people I respect, admire and fair equity shares now has time limits and controls none of us decided or agreed to because a union(s) can excommunicate us from the entire working industry.

The industry should self-regulate under threat. Implementing a union will benefit few but the union leaders. The film industry is a prime example of what happens and films like Star Wars barely exist in the face of union pressure. George Lucas hired Irvine Kershner to direct because he knew all about Hollywood, but was 'not Hollywood'. Gary Oldman turned down a SW role due to union rules. The public has no idea how cliquey and regulated the film industry is, thanks in part to the studio model and union rules.

I'd sooner call for a tech union and see a whole bunch of engineers get a proper cut of the $100 million+ companies that get sold without them seeing a dime.

Game industry artists are very skilled and can get work elsewhere for much easier conditions. They choose to stay and work hard and can choose to negotiate better salaries. I can't comment on mega-corps that there are limits to negotiations, in the independent part there is a lot more leeway. The conditions will always be difficult, timing is the difficulty that we can't control.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#184

Post by Frondo »

me_me_me wrote: post #12
bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

> I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human You agree that this things are happening and its not OK. why do you follow that up with: > but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Clearly if people are being taken advantage of its an issue. And its issue for large enough percentage of workforce for us to talk about it. Also this is global problem and…

What infuriates me about the GP post is:

unionizing is literally one of the options they have.

It's enshrined in law, has a long history, has been implemented to great benefit to scores of people worldwide -- why shouldn't that option be on the table as well for these workers?

And, frankly speaking, "go find another job" is a terrible rejoinder, if they like their job, but don't like their working conditions, let them come together in a group to change their working conditions. It's their legal right to do so, as well as a human right.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#185

Post by bluGill »

keiferski wrote: post #90
sonofaplum wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actors have a long standing, powerful and successful union.

Yeah I don't get why people bring up Hollywood in union discussions. Virtually every position in the film industry is unionized, even the semi-obscure ones like storyboard artists.

The film unions are the perfect thing to bring up because they are the most like video games. Thus both the good and bad from those unions are likely to apply. Apply the rules for a coal miners to video game workers and the union will die quickly as workers realize the rules coal miners need are not helpful for their situation. Apply the rules for the actors union to video game workers and you have a chance of success.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#186

Post by tomtheelder »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #69
balls187 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best…

A labor union gives union leaders bargaining ability. Even if we assume that leaders are properly aligned with the employees as a whole, which is not something I think can be taken for granted, I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is.

> I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is

This is precisely the situation that most non-unionized workers already have, except that no one is even nominally trying to advocate for their interests.

The theory that corporations should be beholden exclusively to shareholders and not to all stakeholders took over completely, and has failed workers spectacularly (it's been great for capital, unsurprisingly). Having union representatives with bargaining ability is just a means for the most important stakeholders, workers, to exert any influence in a situation where they currently have none.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#187

Post by spamizbad »

reaperducer wrote: post #48
bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". All the video game industry has to do is to give its workers better treatment than they would get under union stewardship. Problem solved. But I expect video games will follow the path of many other industries, and keep beating their mules until the mules revolt. It's a lesson that has played out publicly hundreds of times over the l…

> All the video game industry has to do is to give its workers better treatment than they would get under union stewardship. Problem solved.

Not even that. You could give employees half of what they would get under a union and you'd completely kill any motivation to unionize. The video game industry is so exploitative though that'll never happen.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#188

Post by eropple »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #112
eropple wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.

But it’s still an important example, because a union would not have allowed John Carmack to exist, and we would have none of his fruits. If you read Masters of Doom, it will be obvious why.

Yeah, a union definitely would have meant that half a dozen friends couldn't quit their employer and go work for themselves. That's definitely how it works. Because unions are slavery.

Why are you bad-faithing your way around this entire discussion?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#189

Post by the_watcher »

commandlinefan wrote: post #22
bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

> it's not like you don't have options There's a catch-22 there, though - the more times you exercise your option (to move to a different job), the harder it is to exercise it the next time. Too many job changes is considered a negative.

That definitely has not been the case in my observation, including my own job hopping career.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#190

Post by tomtheelder »

Aperocky wrote: post #140
empath75 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best time to start a union is exactly when you're in hot demand and well compensated. That's when you have the most leverage.

I find this untrue. historically, unions represent jobs that are most at risk from replacement - e.g. by strikebreakers. Which is opposite end of the spectrum from 'hot demand and well compensated'. In fact, unionization are spurred by the opposite of these things.

You've missed their point a bit here. It wasn't that the most common time to start a union is when you have leverage, it was that that is the best time.

Software workers could achieve huge results if they collectively bargained, and the relative scarcity of labor means that if they unionize it will be comparatively difficult to skirt those unions.

Also, there's not knowing what you've got until it's gone. Software workers have the power to organize now, but there is good reason to believe that, for one reason or another, that power will decrease at some point in the future. That has happened to practically every industry in history. Software workers would be wise to organize when they can, instead of waiting until they are forced to.

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