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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#61

Post by balls187 »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #39
balls187 wrote: post #28

Have you considered what your career will be like at age 48? 55? 62? It's true that software developers are well compensated and in high demand, that demand tapers off rapidly after 40, when ageism comes up. If you want to go into management, then it's climb the corporate ladder, and get promoted until you can't do your job. What if you want to stay an IC? Become the lone developer who can support a legacy react appl…

This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This just seems really entitled. It’s up to you to create value, regardless of age.

That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions.

Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own.

Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best interest and value your contributions.

A labor union would give you the bargaining ability to have that say.

Unions aren't above abuse, but neither are non-union jobs either.

I'm offering a perspective as someone with ~20 years experience in industry lucky enough to have been relevant for so long.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#62

Post by throwaway17_17 »

vvanders wrote: post #17
Aperocky wrote: post #3

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

Software engineers aren't the only one that work in that industry. On the dev-side there's a couple routes out, however on the design and art side adjacent industries are even worse meat-grinders or not an option.

But there in lies the problem. Most of the discussion opposed to union come from the actual software engineering aspect, but the unionization proposals are attempting to cover the multitude of sub-professions that compromise game development. It is often glossed over that actual engineers have vastly different options, priorities, and working conditions than these other workers.

Carmack’s options should be seen as addressing engineering conditions, I would assume. The negative articles seem to address animators, level layout designers and, most particularly, QA employees. These roles have a wildly different work trajectory than an exiting software engineer.

I’m all for these workers finding some leverage, but I think engineers linking there prospective and fate to people in such a disparate place.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#63

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

balls187 wrote: post #45
lettergram wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won’t comment on anything but the ageism. Most of the developers I work with are in there late 20s and early 30s. We’ve hired people in their 40s, 50s and 60s to join our team. According to those I’ve spoken with there really isn’t a challenge to find work - regardless of age. The caveat being everyone I spoke with was current on the latest languages, research, etc. If you stay current with the times you can find a…

Curious how are the 40,50,60 year old programmers working out for your team?

Can’t speak for the original commenter, but the 50 year old on our team ramped up to become our most trusted source of design feedback within a month or two.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#64

Post by dangerboysteve »

blululu wrote: post #49

There are plenty of examples where unions can be a constructive force in securing good working conditions while promoting good business practices. Given the poor reputation of video game development work this could be a really positive development. That being said, the last time I had a unionized job I was pretty disappointed with the results. They consistently failed to secure cost of living adjustments, and the one…

and what were your total union dues during this period ? Because if the union failed to get you a COLA increase then the dues would have put you in the red.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#65

Post by CalRobert »

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

"not like you don't have options in this industry"

Indeed, and whether or not one has options was painfully obvious at my last gig where the people in devops, backend systems design, etc. could walk into a new job in a day were pretty relaxed, but the people who lived and breathed Unity3D were crunching hard.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#67

Post by crdoconnor »

umvi wrote: post #51
blululu wrote: post #49

There are plenty of examples where unions can be a constructive force in securing good working conditions while promoting good business practices. Given the poor reputation of video game development work this could be a really positive development. That being said, the last time I had a unionized job I was pretty disappointed with the results. They consistently failed to secure cost of living adjustments, and the one…

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

Employers tend to be a lot more hostile to unions in the US. This manifests with deliberately spread FUD about unions (e.g. the ridiculous Walmart video), covert attempts to sabotage, depiction of schoolteachers as terrorists (by the Kentucky governor) and, in one rather extreme case, aerial bombardment of striking workers.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#68

Post by quest88 »

me_me_me wrote: post #12
bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

> I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human You agree that this things are happening and its not OK. why do you follow that up with: > but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Clearly if people are being taken advantage of its an issue. And its issue for large enough percentage of workforce for us to talk about it. Also this is global problem and…

I think op is saying that the video game developers are choosing to subject themselves to it and therefore they don't need protections. Even though conditions are said to be bad studios somehow seem to have an endless supply of developers.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#69

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

balls187 wrote: post #61
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This just seems really entitled. It’s up to you to create value, regardless of age.

That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best…

A labor union gives union leaders bargaining ability. Even if we assume that leaders are properly aligned with the employees as a whole, which is not something I think can be taken for granted, I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#70

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

aabeshou wrote: post #53
usefulcat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that kind of development model was that much of a liability, you'd think at least one studio or company would have figured that out and would now be killing it as a result. I suspect it's just one of many factors, and probably not that important by itself. The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and…

> The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and are willing to put up with those work conditions. If game developers don't feel exploited by their conditions, then they probably won't join/create the union. If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. > Given that, it's hard to see a wa…

> "What barriers to entry do you foresee coming out of a union?"

Making game development more expensive, obviously, since ending the current abusive practices is going to cost the publishers and development studios more money plus the overhead imposed by the union itself. Unions may have their benefits but it's undeniable that there's a cost there.

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