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The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

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Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#131
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creator actually suggested that it could scale fine if they increased the block size and mentioned future miner farms in 2010. However, it would make sense that exchanges and credit-card-like institutions would want to keep bitcoin unscalable for the foreseeable future and stall scalable development.

In one of his last messages in 2010 before going publically inactive, Bitcoin's creator wrote: > Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices. ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1790.msg28917#msg289... ) Hal Finney, one of the main developers of PGP and Bitcoin's first user wrote in 2010: > I believe this will be the ultim…

> Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

He was talking about people like you. He didn't advocate for a centrally planned block limit. Stop trying to twist his words.

Gavin Andresen and Jeff Garzik are well known big blockers so stop trying to imply otherwise. At least here I won't get censored by theymos like on r\bitcoin and bitcointalk.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creator actually suggested that it could scale fine if they increased the block size and mentioned future miner farms in 2010. However, it would make sense that exchanges and credit-card-like institutions would want to keep bitcoin unscalable for the foreseeable future and stall scalable development.

Do you have any evidence of this kind of collusion?

Yes read this history

https://www.removeddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/6rxw7k/...

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#133
post #16

Note to commenters: In this context "Bitcoin production" is not mining; they're talking about the development of the protocol being centralized.

This is exactly why decentralized currency is no better than regular currency. Bitcoin is centralized in the hands of a few shady, anonymous exchange owners funding the development. At least in a capitalist democracy we get to elect the criminals who rob us blind.

I don't believe other than one or two occasional contributors any exchange has ever funded Bitcoin development.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clarifications (this comment perpetuates some common misconceptions): - A single bitcoin "transaction" can actually have thousands of inputs and thousands of outputs. So energy "per transaction" or "transactions per second" is not analogous to a typical monetary transaction. - Bitcoin does not compete with literal credit card transactions (although some use it like that today). I'd compare Bitcoin on-chain transactio…

Still limited to 1 000 000 bytes per 10 minutes and then some for segwit which was a unnecessary hack job that actually makes blocks bigger without much added throughput.

That isn't true.

In Bitcoin the block size limit was eliminated and replaced with a block weight limit which better reflects the long term operating costs for node. The raw 'size' of transactions inherently is becoming less meaningful in the long term with things like transaction compression and compact encodings.

The weight limit doesn't map perfectly to any size limit because its limiting different things, this evening most blocks have been about 1.3 MB.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#135
post #110
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why add TCP to IP or HTTP to TCP? It's sound engineering. Like in other systems by composing layers you can achieve the advantages of each component while addressing their costs, without creating insurmountable complexity... "have your cake and eat it too". Particularly, the central Bitcoin system is a global broadcast medium-- necessarily for its security. Global broadcast is inherently somewhat limited in its scala…

It's laughably bad engineering to try to solve the scaling issue of the base layer by adding another layer on top. It's like you'd try to solve a throughput problem of IP by layering TCP or HTTP on top. But this is the logic of one of the main devs who championed the "fee market" idea of Bitcoin[0], that high fees are required for Bitcoin to function. And who in 2017 celebrated when fees were around $50.[1] [1]: http…

The article you're linking is an extremely dishonest anonymous hit piece that distorts history to manipulate the audience.

The design of Bitcoin where security is supported by fees to get into blocks is established in the Bitcoin whitepaper and has been in the software since day one.

Contrary to the claims of the article the term "fee market" was introduced and promoted by Jeff Garzik-- rather than people opposing him as the article claims. (Fee market is kind of a bad term, the correct term would be blockspace market, but it actually made sense in the original usage which was about wallets paying 'fees at market rates').

> The answer is lies in the free market. Move transaction fees away from hardcoded limits, and towards something more dynamic, with economic feedback between merchants, users and miners. ... Also introduced is an anti-spam rule that avoids relaying transactions whose value is below that of the transaction fee required to send it. This rule self-adjusts over time, as the "tx fee required to send" changes over time. In a dynamic fee market, it might change a lot.

( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196138.msg2044717#ms... )

> 2010-11-19 20:55:42 eventually we'll all be paying TX fees, sooner or later. and competition to get -some- fee (at lower prices) versus no fee kicks in.

> 2011-02-28 04:13:57 amiller: it's inevitable that fees will be required. nobody should be assuming bitcoin transactions are / will always be free.

> 2011-03-01 20:32:21 fees are inevitable

> 2011-03-10 22:14:34 I think TX fees are a great feedback system; a healthy attribute of bitcoin.

> 2011-11-07 22:43:12 Lolcust: yes, but I worry because transaction fees are broken right now-- clients and miners really need more flexibility to let fees go where the market decides, instead of us guessing what the right fees are.

> 2012-10-11 17:01:27 gmaxwell: I think storage and network will be cheap enough that any non-zero fees will be interesting to miners

> 2013-03-16 00:47:40 So: I have no idea what the right answer for fees is. We need to create a market between miners and users, and let the fees go where they belong.

> 2013-03-17 21:12:04 TD: Satoshi obviously wanted fees to support the system long term. If there is no scarcity, there are no fees.

And people being willing to pay substantive fees to use Bitcoin is absolutely something to celebrate, Bitcoin's long term security is completely dependent on fee income. Getting a non-trivial part of the rewards from fees is a basic validation of the concept.

> 2013-03-17 21:12:44 TD: The current situation, where block subsidy dominates other incentives, clouds thinking on block size

> 2013-08-12 17:59:33 auctions make me want replace-by-fee :)

> 2014-05-12 15:13:22 hearn: fee cap, meaning what? Fees need to be a market, and rise or fall based on supply and demand for block space

> 2014-08-15 12:37:53 Merge this useful change, and next will come the call to remove block size limit altogether, which will throw a nuclear bomb onto any nascent fee market.

> 2014-08-15 12:38:37 All the VCs and execs want an infinite block size limit. It's a sad fixation.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#136

I still hope that they listen to reason and increase bitcoin’s ability to scale. We are all held hostage by a tiny cabal of developers that think they know what is best and want bitcoin to have a perversely small block size and pitiful 7 transactions per second top speed.

I agree with the desire to scale, but there are tradeoffs and I for one appreciate the mindfulness to chaindata growth rate.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#137
post #70

Exchanges trade both in Bitcoin and BitcoinCash, and I've just learned from the paper that they form a tree with a common origin. Does it mean that if I owned Bitcoin before the Bitcoin-BitcoinCash split, I can now spend it on both chains?

yes, but be aware, bcash is plagued with scammers, so as a precaution you should move your coins on bitcoin to another wallet before attempting to use a bcash wallet which could steal your bitcoin private keys.

The "bcash" term is used to attack BCH. It makes many of the attackers (that are everywhere on social media) pretty easy to recognize. Dishonesty and personal attacks are their "bread and butter". They attack BCH because it is the only Bitcoin still working to allow massive scaling.

Dark forces captured BTC to stop it from becoming a real peer-to-peer electronic cash for the world's people. BCH is keeping that dream alive and the dark forces opposed to financial freedom have been attacking BCH since before it existed.

I am sure there are BTC and BCH wallets that can steal your private keys. Don't use a wallet from an unreliable source for any crypto.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#138
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is often notoriously convoluted for technical topics though. I read the Lightning paper and found it simple enough to understand (conceptually at least) how the channels are opened, updated, closed, and penalized. Of course the actual implementation is a more complicated and nuanced than what the paper covers.

Since you read the Lighting whitepaper, you know that an uncongested base-layer is assumed. The paper suggests something like 133MB blocks at scale.

That was a conservative assumption at a multiple of the entire worldwide financial transaction volume... utilizing old technology.

The same volume without lightning would require blocks that were terabytes, which is obviously unworkable at the current state of technology.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, but be aware, bcash is plagued with scammers, so as a precaution you should move your coins on bitcoin to another wallet before attempting to use a bcash wallet which could steal your bitcoin private keys.

The "bcash" term is used to attack BCH. It makes many of the attackers (that are everywhere on social media) pretty easy to recognize. Dishonesty and personal attacks are their "bread and butter". They attack BCH because it is the only Bitcoin still working to allow massive scaling. Dark forces captured BTC to stop it from becoming a real peer-to-peer electronic cash for the world's people. BCH is keeping that dream…

"Dark forces" like people commenting here with anonymous brand new created accounts, slandering people who were tirelessly supporting Bitcoin long before they ever heard of it?

Come on.

Re: The senatorial governance of Bitcoin: making (de)centralized money

#140

I still hope that they listen to reason and increase bitcoin’s ability to scale. We are all held hostage by a tiny cabal of developers that think they know what is best and want bitcoin to have a perversely small block size and pitiful 7 transactions per second top speed.

Clarifications (this comment perpetuates some common misconceptions): - A single bitcoin "transaction" can actually have thousands of inputs and thousands of outputs. So energy "per transaction" or "transactions per second" is not analogous to a typical monetary transaction. - Bitcoin does not compete with literal credit card transactions (although some use it like that today). I'd compare Bitcoin on-chain transactio…

> Bitcoin does not compete with literal credit card transactions

That's, like, just your opinion. For a lot of people it competes just fine.

> Credit card transactions happen on a higher level in the financial stack. As does cash

How so? As far as settlement is concerned, a cash transaction is pretty much exactly like a bitcoin transaction (and quite unlike a credit card transaction).

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