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The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

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Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#51

Post by barry-cotter »

zozbot234 wrote: post #40
camelNotation wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is for everyone, but as a degree it is really only for those that need concentrated experience with a vast amount of cultural wisdom and experience. I would recommend English to a wealthy student who is destined to oversee some sort of philanthropic, corporate, or political enterprise, but not the working class. That said, we can all have a richer, more meaningful experience of ourselves and the world by spen…

> I would recommend English to a wealthy student who is destined to oversee some sort of philanthropic, corporate, or political enterprise Isn't that a rather old-fashioned and even pre-modern POV? A bit like the idea that you should memorize the Confucian classics before being allowed to join the Chinese state bureaucracy. These days, a degree in the social sciences, public policy or the like might be more appropria…

The point of the English degree in this case is not to teach anything useful, it’s to inculcate one into a class. If you come from money and don’t need to develop any particular skills before being given a pile to manage any canon works as a shibboleth to allow people to distinguish whether someone else is of the “right sort”, whether the Confucian classics, the Western canon or Old Skool Rap.

Obviously social sciences or public policy work as well but the idea that they’re superior to the other methods is very weakly supported, at best.

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#52

Post by ikeboy »

mellosouls wrote: post #49
ikeboy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had two links, from years apart, in which he denigrated two authors. He's making a different argument than you. He's not saying King shouldn't have gotten the prize because others would have deserved it more, he's saying he shouldn't have gotten it because he's trash.

Sorry - I saw the archive prefix, and assumed an alternative for the same article. Yes, in the article I read (the second), his tone is provocative at best, and reflects a personality defect at worst, but I think he is saying the same thing - the award was inappropriately awarded, and he has a point. I don't think your original assessment of him is fair.

I'm sure he had other interesting qualities other than being a snob, and I'm not putting down his other contributions, not being familiar with them myself.

But I don't think classifying him as a snob based on that sample is unfair. It's the difference between "I don't like this work" and "people who like this work are wrong".

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#53

Post by ikeboy »

zozbot234 wrote: post #50
ikeboy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had two links, from years apart, in which he denigrated two authors. He's making a different argument than you. He's not saying King shouldn't have gotten the prize because others would have deserved it more, he's saying he shouldn't have gotten it because he's trash.

Literary-minded folks often don't understand what might make 'genre' literature compelling, intellectually worthwhile etc., that's why they're sometimes inclined to regard it uniformly as trash. The reverse also happens, of course. I'm not saying that pure snobbishness does not play a role, but there's also a real divide in aesthetic outlook behind these attitudes.

Even so, Harry Potter is a broader phenomenon than just that.

That should have been clear already in the early 2000s, after the first few movies.

There is an interesting question about where the line gets drawn. I'm inclined to exclude works such as 50 Shades of Grey, but that was also tremendously popular (although not nearly the scale of Harry Potter) and I could easily see someone call me a snob for drawing that distinction.

On the other hand, if 50 Shades won some kind of award I wouldn't be inveighing against it, so there's that.

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#54

Post by zozbot234 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #51
zozbot234 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would recommend English to a wealthy student who is destined to oversee some sort of philanthropic, corporate, or political enterprise Isn't that a rather old-fashioned and even pre-modern POV? A bit like the idea that you should memorize the Confucian classics before being allowed to join the Chinese state bureaucracy. These days, a degree in the social sciences, public policy or the like might be more appropria…

The point of the English degree in this case is not to teach anything useful, it’s to inculcate one into a class. If you come from money and don’t need to develop any particular skills before being given a pile to manage any canon works as a shibboleth to allow people to distinguish whether someone else is of the “right sort”, whether the Confucian classics, the Western canon or Old Skool Rap. Obviously social scienc…

> The point of the English degree in this case is not to teach anything useful, it’s to inculcate one into a class.

That's exactly what I meant by a pre-modern viewpoint. Where "class" or social background are more important than the actual work you're supposed to be doing, and the skills (even general-purpose skills - a social sciences degree teaches plenty of those) you're going to use to that effect. Let's just say that this is not how people or societies become successful - it anything, it's a marker of decadence.

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#55

Post by vo2maxer »

kerkeslager wrote: post #37
johnnylambada wrote: post #2

I can't imagine anyone having read everything in this list. It would take more than a lifetime for me at my reading speed.

Your reading speed would likely improve if you read that much. EDIT: I'm a bit amused by the downvotes here. I've posted plenty of controversial opinions on HN and rarely get this many downvotes. This one seems pretty non-controversial by comparison: is there really some disagreement that reading a lot will result in becoming a faster reader? I'm genuinely confused.

I am not sure either why you’re being downvoted on a non-controversial comment. I’m also honestly curious. Is your statement being conflated with ‘speed reading’? A quick search finds plenty of similar recommendations. From one of them:

“The more you read, the more you will be better at it. The better you are at reading, the more you will increase your reading speed.” [1]

[1] https://www.lifehack.org/articles/productivity/10-ways-incre...

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#56

Post by zozbot234 »

vo2maxer wrote: post #55
kerkeslager wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reading speed would likely improve if you read that much. EDIT: I'm a bit amused by the downvotes here. I've posted plenty of controversial opinions on HN and rarely get this many downvotes. This one seems pretty non-controversial by comparison: is there really some disagreement that reading a lot will result in becoming a faster reader? I'm genuinely confused.

I am not sure either why you’re being downvoted on a non-controversial comment. I’m also honestly curious. Is your statement being conflated with ‘speed reading’? A quick search finds plenty of similar recommendations. From one of them: “The more you read, the more you will be better at it. The better you are at reading, the more you will increase your reading speed.” [1] [1] https://www.lifehack.org/articles/product…

FYI, the Guidelines of this site state that one should not complain about the voting on comments. It can change quite a bit over time, so early impressions are likely to be misleading.

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#57

Post by mellosouls »

zozbot234 wrote: post #50
ikeboy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had two links, from years apart, in which he denigrated two authors. He's making a different argument than you. He's not saying King shouldn't have gotten the prize because others would have deserved it more, he's saying he shouldn't have gotten it because he's trash.

Literary-minded folks often don't understand what might make 'genre' literature compelling, intellectually worthwhile etc., that's why they're sometimes inclined to regard it uniformly as trash. The reverse also happens, of course. I'm not saying that pure snobbishness does not play a role, but there's also a real divide in aesthetic outlook behind these attitudes.

I'm a literary minded person and completely understand the draw of genre fiction; I'm currently burning my way through Jack Reacher 16-book set.

But I think it is a very different thing intellectually to literary works, and it shouldn't be dismissed as snobbish (I'm not referring to you or anyone else here) simply to point that out.

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#58

Post by vo2maxer »

zozbot234 wrote: post #56
vo2maxer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure either why you’re being downvoted on a non-controversial comment. I’m also honestly curious. Is your statement being conflated with ‘speed reading’? A quick search finds plenty of similar recommendations. From one of them: “The more you read, the more you will be better at it. The better you are at reading, the more you will increase your reading speed.” [1] [1] https://www.lifehack.org/articles/product…

FYI, the Guidelines of this site state that one should not complain about the voting on comments. It can change quite a bit over time, so early impressions are likely to be misleading.

I know the guidelines well, nevertheless, thank you. But I’m truly curious why such a straightforward comment by kerkeslager would get downvoted, it would honestly satisfy my intellectual curiosity. It also raises the issue with reading speed and its connotations. Examples: Is reading faster better? It depends on the material; Is speed reading as the extreme form of it of any value or just a gimmick? A gimmick of no value to me.

Re: The Western Canon by Harold Bloom (2011)

#59

Post by DataWorker »

ikeboy wrote: post #52
mellosouls wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry - I saw the archive prefix, and assumed an alternative for the same article. Yes, in the article I read (the second), his tone is provocative at best, and reflects a personality defect at worst, but I think he is saying the same thing - the award was inappropriately awarded, and he has a point. I don't think your original assessment of him is fair.

I'm sure he had other interesting qualities other than being a snob, and I'm not putting down his other contributions, not being familiar with them myself. But I don't think classifying him as a snob based on that sample is unfair. It's the difference between "I don't like this work" and "people who like this work are wrong".

Criticize the criticism not the critic.
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