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Programming Language Checklist

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Re: Programming Language Checklist

#41

Post by tchaffee »

krapp wrote: post #36
mikorym wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does PHP modify code client side like Javascript? IMO this is the inherent difficulty with Javascript. I would prefer that you have the "source code" as two separate things: the hard details of the page and the code to manipulate behaviour. This [1] current HN front page link would illustrate what I mean. You have a colour palette (hard details) and the behaviour (code to plot the colour palette). Of course this is a…

That's not really a difficulty of javascript the language - you're supposed to have your javascript completely separate from the HTML and CSS, with everything in static files of that type. Separation of concerns was built into the web from the beginning. It just happens to be a popular architectural pattern at the moment to reimplement the DOM, HTML and CSS all in javascript and have one big mess of code.

Separation of concerns can be handled in one language. The popular MVC pattern does not require three separate languagues. And in fact that's rare in my experience. So web frameworks moving towards the norm and allowing it to all be handled in the same language should not be surprising or a mess.

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#42

Post by chrisweekly »

tcard wrote: post #40
mhd wrote: post #28

> [ ] You have reinvented Javascript but worse > [ ] You have reinvented PHP but worse I'm trying to think of languages that would fit that bill. That almost sounds like a challenge.

Svelte.

Care to elaborate? I haven't gone derp w Svelte and Sapper, but have heard good things. Interested in any meaningful critique.

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#43

Post by rmetzler »

cies wrote: post #14

I got an idea for a language where the code in the file format is some intermediary language, which you write with an editor plugin that makes it more human-readable. The editor plugin (in contrast to existing language plugins) also translates the error msgs back to the human-readable code. Just an idea, but I could not get it to fit in the questionaire :)

This sounds like assembler.

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#44

Post by skinnymuch »

tluyben2 wrote: post #18
cryptica wrote: post #11

>> You appear to believe that: Syntax is what makes programming difficult This is exactly the problem. People spend so much effort looking for better syntax that they miss the most important part of programming. It's about design and structure, the syntax doesn't really matter at all. I don't even care if it's dynamically typed or statically typed or functional or not. A bad developer will produce bad code no matter…

> the syntax doesn't really matter at all. Somehow it does though: I find even j/k/apl easier to parse in my head than Ruby; somehow the ruby syntax gives me a headache. Not sure why that is, as I wrote a lot of code in it, but I find Python, C#, F#, Haskell or Kotlin far nicer to read and write. And, even though I understand the semantics and can write code in Ruby, if I have a choice, I would never touch it again.…

Yeah for sure this is a big thing. I love Ruby’s syntax and if I could, I’d love to write in it all day if I was being paid the same amount as another language. Psychology is also at play. JavaScript I agreed can be quite rancid. But knowing it’s the only language that works in every browser, I internally whined about it less and now rarely do at all.

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#45

Post by wongarsu »

tchaffee wrote: post #41
krapp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really a difficulty of javascript the language - you're supposed to have your javascript completely separate from the HTML and CSS, with everything in static files of that type. Separation of concerns was built into the web from the beginning. It just happens to be a popular architectural pattern at the moment to reimplement the DOM, HTML and CSS all in javascript and have one big mess of code.

Separation of concerns can be handled in one language. The popular MVC pattern does not require three separate languagues. And in fact that's rare in my experience. So web frameworks moving towards the norm and allowing it to all be handled in the same language should not be surprising or a mess.

>The popular MVC pattern does not require three separate languagues. And in fact that's rare in my experience.

ASP.NET MVC uses C#, (C)HTML and CSS for a total of three languages. WPF uses XAML and C# for a total of two. Android uses XML and Java for a total of two. I think Delphi only uses one, I vaguely remember the designer outputting plain Delphi instructions? I might be misremembering.

React is not exactly encouraging separation of concerns, and in some ways this was better in the times of JQuery. But I don't think this is directly related to the number of languages involved.

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#47

Post by taneq »

nulldata wrote: post #37
taneq wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re not making anybody angry, you’re not doing anything important.

But making people angry doesn't imply that you're doing something important though.

Well yeah, it’s necessary but not sufficient. ;)

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#48

Post by chrisweekly »

krapp wrote: post #36
mikorym wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does PHP modify code client side like Javascript? IMO this is the inherent difficulty with Javascript. I would prefer that you have the "source code" as two separate things: the hard details of the page and the code to manipulate behaviour. This [1] current HN front page link would illustrate what I mean. You have a colour palette (hard details) and the behaviour (code to plot the colour palette). Of course this is a…

That's not really a difficulty of javascript the language - you're supposed to have your javascript completely separate from the HTML and CSS, with everything in static files of that type. Separation of concerns was built into the web from the beginning. It just happens to be a popular architectural pattern at the moment to reimplement the DOM, HTML and CSS all in javascript and have one big mess of code.

You're right that it's not javascript's fault per se. But the rest of your comment represents a narrow, dated and frankly ignorant viewpoint. Component-based front-end architecture has tremendous advantages. And if you want to see "one big mess", simply examine the CSS of virtually any moderately-sized website or web application.

I've been doing web-related development since the late 90's, and I make a living as a UI Architect. Increasingly my clients are looking for my help to unfk their nightmarish, effectively unmaintainable legacy codebases -- which typically have followed this same cargo-cult "wisdom" to their detriment.

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#49

Post by outadoc »

cies wrote: post #14

I got an idea for a language where the code in the file format is some intermediary language, which you write with an editor plugin that makes it more human-readable. The editor plugin (in contrast to existing language plugins) also translates the error msgs back to the human-readable code. Just an idea, but I could not get it to fit in the questionaire :)

Congratulations, you just invented AppleScript!

Re: Programming Language Checklist

#50

Post by tluyben2 »

skinnymuch wrote: post #44
tluyben2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the syntax doesn't really matter at all. Somehow it does though: I find even j/k/apl easier to parse in my head than Ruby; somehow the ruby syntax gives me a headache. Not sure why that is, as I wrote a lot of code in it, but I find Python, C#, F#, Haskell or Kotlin far nicer to read and write. And, even though I understand the semantics and can write code in Ruby, if I have a choice, I would never touch it again.…

Yeah for sure this is a big thing. I love Ruby’s syntax and if I could, I’d love to write in it all day if I was being paid the same amount as another language. Psychology is also at play. JavaScript I agreed can be quite rancid. But knowing it’s the only language that works in every browser, I internally whined about it less and now rarely do at all.

I do not really whine about it (except when people are talking about it as I do feel it's important to have and hear different opinions) and of course JS is currently a necessary evil. Thinking about that too much makes no sense and serves no purpose, but when I step back, I know I just really don't like it. And then I just get back to coding. With Ruby I have a harder time doing that. Guess it's taste and 'first experience'; my first Ruby experience was inheriting a very large, badly written (very hacky) RoR codebase I had to migrate 2 versions up to the latest RoR. It was pure hell. So it would be a combination of things that gives me such PTSD for syntax.
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