On Privacy versus Freedom • Hacker News Board

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#141

Post by Arathorn » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 8:30 AM UTC

progval wrote: post #126

blindgeek wrote: post #110

My biggest problem with messaging applications as a whole is that I need so many of them. I have a few contacts who are reachable with Signal, a few more who are reachable on Hangouts or whatever Google is calling its latest thing, and a few more who are reachable with Skype. That's three programs, to communicate with three different subsets of people. I'm sure if I used Facebook Messenger and Whatsapp, I'd have two…

> XMPP was supposed to solve all those problems when it came out That's also what Matrix said it would solve when it started. Except now it's yet another protocol with its own chatrooms that are not reachable from any other protocol by default (even rooms on matrix.org); and bridges are at best in "beta" (except the Telegram bridge, which is "late beta"): https://matrix.org/bridges/

We tend to be pretty conservative on maturity estimates on Matrix (and bad at keeping the website updated).

IRC, Slack, Gitter bridges are all considered stable these days.

XMPP, Discord, Telegram, WhatsApp work usably too.

The UX for managing them is not always great or consistent (we’re working on that currently), but “yet another protocol with its own chatrooms” is untrue. You can certainly access the entirety of Matrix via Bifrost (the XMPP bridge) if you so desire, for instance.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#142

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 9:04 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #117

haffenloher wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of this talk, APN means "Apple Push Network", I think. The concern is that even if the service doesn't ask for a phone number directly, it does still have an APN or GCM/FCM push token. Through the push provider, that token can probably be linked to the user's phone number. > With unlocked smartphones, it is possible to remove the SIM card, clear any APN settings and access WiFi. If you're willing to do…

So you pull a Telegram and create a good alternative to APN/Firebase.

What alternative is there on iOS?

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#143

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 9:07 AM UTC

e12e wrote: post #74

fulafel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would GPL prevent distribution via app stores? I think I have at least one GPL app installed that way.

While some comments here mention freedom zero (ability to run the program) another problem with ios is that you can only build on Apple hardware - so there's limits on how you can distribute and use changes.

This is only really a convenience limitation; it’s possible to run the iOS toolchain on other platforms with a significant amount of work. In any case, I can’t see GPL’s clause on distribution and modification kicking in here.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#144

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 9:10 AM UTC

csande17 wrote: post #37

nirs wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how GPL prohibits distribution via app stores?

According to the FSF, the App Store is incompatible with the GPL because its Terms of Service restricts what people can do with the apps they download: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store...

That verbiage no longer seems to appear in the EULA.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#145

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 9:12 AM UTC

jyrkesh wrote: post #11

est31 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mandatory google play services Note that since a while there is also the possibility of using web sockets. But they are an extreme battery drain, and thus google services are quasi-mandatory. Telegram solves this without being a battery drain, possibly at the cost of delivering messages with a delay, but why isn't that my choice.

I can't tell you how they do it, but Telegram is lightning fast with push notifications across all kinds of devices, including Android. Been rocking it as my primary messenger for years. Whenever a few of us are sitting around in real life, and someone sends something to a group chat, all the phones on the table will buzz instantly together (iOS and Android). And on top of that, battery usage is really low on Android…

> Meanwhile, I can just open Snapchat once, and I lose a few percent.

That’s really a mark of Snapchat’s incompetence rather than Telegram’s adroitness.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#146

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 9:13 AM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #32

rumanator wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Email is flawed and will become a one way protocol to receive spam, newsletters and invoices just like paper mail. I don't recall the last time I've received spam in my email inbox among the tens of emails I've receive daily, and newsletters/invoices are messages that users intend to subscribe. You might argue that instant messaging scratches an itch that email doesn't, but that's a bit shortsighted and doesn't mak…

Newsletters and other BS notifications are the new spam. Sure, you can technically opt-out and keep your inbox clean by spending 5 minutes opting out of the garbage every time you sign up to a new service, but that’s irrelevant considering nobody does this and most of my friends’ mailboxes are pretty much unusable because this kind of spam arrives every minute and they have tens of thousands of unread emails in their…

I’ve started marking those as spam and they’ve really stopped bothering me.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#147

Post by zaarn » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 9:17 AM UTC

progval wrote: post #135

Leer10 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice those bridges function very well. It's common to find channels in the Matrix ecosystem that have IRC and Discord users that aren't even aware that there's Matrix participants.

The IRC bridge between matrix.org and freenode disconnects almost every week, showing sometimes hundreds of clients disconnecting, then reconnecting a few hours later. I didn't check it personally, but I heard they (understandably) have issues enforcing bans: if one of their users is banned but another one is in the channel, the banned user can still read messages.

Matrix is general lacks support for community tools to handle stuff like that (unless you're running a channel with loose rules that doesn't get raided by 4chan on a weekly basis).

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#148

Post by evgen » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 9:18 AM UTC

dancemethis wrote: post #119

Signal really tries hard to not be trustworthy. The way they defend WhatsApp is heart-breaking. It's cute to see them saying there is no backdoor when it can't be proven to be the case, since it's all proprietary. They can't show the server side wasn't tampered with. Same with Skype.

The constant repetition of this ignorant claim is starting to be annoying. Think there is a client backdoor? Go find it. It is not like the binary is not available to you. It is not like there are not emulators in which you can step through the code. Please, show us the backdoor.

Server side tampering? Show us how it can be done. Create a server that can tamper with a patched client. Demonstrate your chops.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#149

Post by nirui » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 10:18 AM UTC

blindgeek wrote: post #110

My biggest problem with messaging applications as a whole is that I need so many of them. I have a few contacts who are reachable with Signal, a few more who are reachable on Hangouts or whatever Google is calling its latest thing, and a few more who are reachable with Skype. That's three programs, to communicate with three different subsets of people. I'm sure if I used Facebook Messenger and Whatsapp, I'd have two…

I guess most of the people that you mentioned can be reached through Email?

Email is a very good system, completely decentralized and yet still agile. It is sad that the protocol (SMTP, POP and IMAP etc) is stopped advancing into today's world.

If somebody from IETF is watching, maybe consider renewing the email protocol standards to make it more modern (like what you guys did in HTTP/2: Binary protocol, multiplex, better security etc)?

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#150

Post by Nextgrid » Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 10:27 AM UTC

samdixon wrote: post #108

Nextgrid wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Newsletters and other BS notifications are the new spam. Sure, you can technically opt-out and keep your inbox clean by spending 5 minutes opting out of the garbage every time you sign up to a new service, but that’s irrelevant considering nobody does this and most of my friends’ mailboxes are pretty much unusable because this kind of spam arrives every minute and they have tens of thousands of unread emails in their…

Most sites will allow you to opt out from account creation and also will allow you to unsubscribe without even having to login to your account. If your mailbox has 10k+ spam messages it is IMO a personal problem of either not opting out, or signing up for total garbage sites in the first place.

Most subscription options at signup are using dark patterns to make you subscribe against your will (“untick this box if you want to miss out on the inconvenience of not receiving our latest deal”).

There’s also the issue of it being implemented badly (mostly by mistake rather than on purpose) where there are several spam systems & lists, the website opts you out of one but there’s another one in the background you can’t opt out of without at least receiving one and clicking the unsubscribe link - sometimes they make multiple campaigns so opting out of one doesn’t mean you’re safe from the next one, etc.

And finally there are those who aren’t technically marketing but a huge lack of respect for the person’s time & attention - customer service reviews and the “how did we do?” emails. Why can’t you put the feedback buttons in the existing emails instead of sending a new one and interrupting my flow & wasting my time?

For the latter I had a company doing this every single f’ing time for every ticket I opened about a benign bug or suggestion (using in-app chat still opens a ticket thanks to Zendesk Chat). I’ve eventually started forwarding them straight back into the main support email. I think they got the hint after several months - I’ve removed the forwarding rule and the feedback crap is nowhere to be seen. VICTORY!

Even if there are not technically marketing a lot of companies just have a complete lack of respect for their users time. Let’s take Facebook, Twitter or even Spotify for example; they have like over 20 categories of email notifications (excluding the newsletter) which are guaranteed to fill up your inbox by themselves, let alone having signed up to multiple of those services. You shouldn’t have to be manually unticking 20+ checkboxes just to enjoy a clean inbox.