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Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

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Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#351

Post by vasilipupkin »

mlyle wrote: post #348
vasilipupkin wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because we haven’t done nearly enough for the poor guy. It’s not the case that we’ve done everything possible for the poor and they still didn’t improve much. That’s false.

We're measuring the effect of one thing-- getting a poor person to college-- composed with all the other interventions that are spread through the population. We measure the value of this-- getting to college-- as very small and even possibly negative. We also measure interventions and their values / impacts on earnings much higher. Going "la la la but college would be much better and itself a win if we did 50 other…

No, we don’t measure this. The study in question tries to make college wage premium go away using questionable control variables. Sure, some skilled trades can make more money than liberal arts grads. But very few people want to be plumbers or work on an oil rig and for good reason.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#352

Post by someguydave »

nradov wrote: post #280
someguydave wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Software engineering” is not a recognized engineering discipline.

IEEE would disagree. http://www.cs-tcse.org/

Not a single jurisdiction in the US licenses software engineers.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#353

Post by someguydave »

CydeWeys wrote: post #234
someguydave wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Software engineering” is not a recognized engineering discipline.

Who cares, though. It's known what is meant by that phrase.

Kinda? What exactly is the difference between software engineering and programming?

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#354

Post by macspoofing »

cgriswald wrote: post #249
macspoofing wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How “discerning” could you be when making loans to teenagers with no income and no credit history? Very. They may very well take into account your grades and SAT score to determine feasibility of repayment. >The only thing that would happen is that the banks would force all loans to be co-signed. They may and why shouldn't they? This will deter expensive colleges and push students to cheaper alternatives like trade…

The requirement of a co-signer essentially means that the only people who get to go to college are the people who can afford to go to college before they go to college . You end up with a system where people who shouldn't go to college still go, because their parents can afford to send them; but people who should go to college can't, both because they can't get the funds (even though they could pay them back as a gra…

>The requirement of a co-signer essentially means that the only people who get to go to college are the people who can afford to go to college before they go to college

That's not what it means at all. College is not a binary option. There many schools with varying tuition. And even in a world where college tuition is much higher than it should be due to the distortion of subsidized and guaranteed federal loans, a student can make a decision that balances their financial situation and academic goals. That may involve choosing a less prestigious state school closer to home, working in the summers, or working part-time, or going to school part-time, etc.

I also don't really understand your point. The requirement for consignment of a loan is because the loaner cannot afford the loan. That doesn't change if the loan is simply guaranteed as in the present system.

>but people who should go to college can't, both because they can't get the funds (even though they could pay them back as a graduate)

Why wouldn't that be incorporated into the loan application, i.e. the ability of the loaner to graduate and join a competitive field. That's the argument I'm making. The people who are most screwed by school debt are those that went to expensive schools to get non-competitive degrees that won't enable them to pay back their debt. Nobody is crying for doctors who may carry a large debt, but also make very good money.

>because the first group is driving up prices.

Funny you should reference market mechanics now ....

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#355

Post by macspoofing »

scarface74 wrote: post #261
macspoofing wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How “discerning” could you be when making loans to teenagers with no income and no credit history? Very. They may very well take into account your grades and SAT score to determine feasibility of repayment. >The only thing that would happen is that the banks would force all loans to be co-signed. They may and why shouldn't they? This will deter expensive colleges and push students to cheaper alternatives like trade…

Very. They may very well take into account your grades and SAT score to determine feasibility of repayment. You act as if the SAT score is a predictive of future success. Do you know how easy it is for parents of means to pay for “sat tutorials” that will help their kids improve their scores significantly? Ask me how I know. They may and why shouldn't they? This will deter expensive colleges and push students to chea…

>You act as if the SAT score is a predictive of future success.

It's a predictor of your odds of graduating from University.

>Do you know how easy it is for parents of means to pay for “sat tutorials” that will help their kids improve their scores significantly?

Children of Parents who care about their education will do well. News at 11.

>So only the rich should go to the good schools?

That's not what I said at all. There are lots of good schools providing good education out there. State universities, by and large, are phenomenal, frequently with a good tuition for in-state students. You don't need a boutique humanities degree from a high priced private college. You can leave those to the rich.

>Student loans are or should be based on the ability to pay back loans based on future earnings

Sure. I don't disagree with that. It's why nobody complains about doctor school debt load, because their field pays well.

What's disgusting is giving a non-affluent student tens of thousands per year in debt to get a humanities degree.

And that's the problem .... we're not discriminating enough by the chosen degree. Federal loans should discriminate by the program.

>Most loans are based on credit, prior repayment history and income - three things that students don’t have.

You're still operating within the current system where tuition has been distorted due to massive injection of federally guaranteed loans into the system.

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to choose a good school and work part-time or do school part-time and pay your way (at least mostly). This is possible today even in the distorted market.

And finally, are you really arguing that loans should be given to individuals who cannot afford them and will not afford them with the degree they will get??

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#356

Post by nradov »

someguydave wrote: post #352
nradov wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IEEE would disagree. http://www.cs-tcse.org/

Not a single jurisdiction in the US licenses software engineers.

Did Texas recently secede from the US? Because it looks like they offer PE licensing for Software Engineering.

https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/eb17.htm

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#357

Post by deepnotderp »

motohagiography wrote: post #349
deepnotderp wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick: Veblen good, not giffen

Was going to go with Veblen because of status signalling, but when the price elasticity of demand gets inverted, it was Giffen.

Isn't that true for Veblen too?

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#358

Post by someguydave »

nradov wrote: post #356
someguydave wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single jurisdiction in the US licenses software engineers.

Did Texas recently secede from the US? Because it looks like they offer PE licensing for Software Engineering. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/eb17.htm

Fair enough, I didn't know that.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#359

Post by someguydave »

nradov wrote: post #356
someguydave wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single jurisdiction in the US licenses software engineers.

Did Texas recently secede from the US? Because it looks like they offer PE licensing for Software Engineering. https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/eb17.htm

the NCEES is discontinuing Software PE exams https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#360

Post by motohagiography »

deepnotderp wrote: post #357
motohagiography wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was going to go with Veblen because of status signalling, but when the price elasticity of demand gets inverted, it was Giffen.

Isn't that true for Veblen too?

If I remember F&D correctly, Veblen was more of a back fitted narrative construct around luxury goods, where Giffen was the "impossible," artifact of inverting the price elasticity of demand. They are related, but Veblen didn't write that a wave of debt would cause leisure consumption, whereas the wave of debt fueled demand is just the distortion that would make Giffen goods possible.
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