Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019 • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#301

Post by wozniacki » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #253

wozniacki wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's so dangerous, maybe we should get the cars out of the places where people are walking around a lot. Since the primary purpose of a city is for people to get business and life done, and not to move cars from one side of it to the other. This is why level-headed observers dismiss opinions on HN to be thoroughly foolhardy, tone-deaf and impractical. People use cars for a variety of reasons - convenience just bei…

None of those conveniences is more valuable than the human lives that are lost in traffic accidents. Such deadly traffic accidents could be prevented if the speed limit inside city centers was reduced to the level the OP is suggesting. Or if city centers were pedestrianised, etc. Also, you really shouldn't be "receiving and placing calls when commuting" in your car. Hands-free included. Finally, I struggle to see how…

   None of those conveniences is more valuable than the
   human lives that are lost in traffic accidents.

Again, cherry-picking cars or vehicular traffic, as some how a convenience that puts way too many lives at risk is just absurd.

We, as a society in modern times, weigh the trade-offs of many deadly and even fatal things and allow them, only if the net good is far too great to be ignored or sidelined. There are well established norms, standards and guidelines to vet those "net goods" as well. These things arent arbitrary decisions we make over a whim or fancy.

If horses and buggies were even 60% as "efficient" or rated 60% as good as any motor-vehicular form of transport I'm sure you would still see them on streets despite the downsides.

They arent. Thats why we dont see them (unless you count communities such as the Amish or Irish travelers racing horses on roads). They arent even half as good as cars, when you consider _all the factors_.

Despite all the downsides ( like pollution which should be a non-issue with the advent of electric cars or hydrogen-fueled cars like the Mirai ) cars are an out sized net good.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#302

Post by yawboakye » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

gokhan wrote: post #13

One interesting observation on Oslo is that, pedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them, if there's no moving traffic close by. This is totally different from, for example, Copenhagen, Stockholm and places I visited in Germany. They're like Italians of the north. That's probably why we felt at home on the streets during our stay there, as a family from Turkey. I would love to have that 0 deaths statistics…

This could also explain the low (or 0) deaths. When you're going against the system i.e. crossing or contemplating crossing the road without the instruction of the pedestrian traffic light, you're usually more alert to your surroundings. I cross the street at will in Berlin, and even on a one-way street I still look both ways to be extra sure.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#303

Post by weberc2 » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #114

vegardx wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Oslo at least, the crosswalks (usually) have lights if there's an intersection, and since there are no laws against crossing on red you are free to do so, as long as you don't create any dangerous situations. I'd argue that the lights are not to improve traffic flow, but to signal pedestrians that it's safe to cross, something sighted, young or otherwise healthy people often take for granted by just looking both w…

In the US, pedestrian signals do NOT signal when it’s safe to cross. Cars almost always have a green in the same direction, meaning they can turn into you. I almost get run over once a month because of this.

> Cars almost always have a green in the same direction, meaning they can turn into you.

This is where you are mistaken. In the US, cars are obligated to yield to pedestrians in the crosswalk while turning, even with a green light. The pedestrian signal indicates pedestrians have the right of way. Of course, drivers may illegally fail to yield, but whether a driver obeys the law is a different matter than what the law says.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#304

Post by rwnspace » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

duncanawoods wrote: post #170

kmlx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

same in the UK. but more than that, in the UK in any intersection with traffic lights the pedestrians will never have a green light at the same time as cars. meanwhile, in most countries i've visited making a left or a right turn in an intersection will most likely cause you to stop for pedestrians that also get a green light. frustrating and illogical!

"Green at the same time" in the UK is flashing-amber and means "if free, proceed with caution". Nearby, in a shopping/student district, there is a dual-carriage-away with high pedestrian crossing flow. It is only green for pedestrians for a few seconds before going to flashing-amber for both. It makes some sense as it's so wide that many cars can pass while people are still crossing. However, as a pedestrian, I reall…

I heard that the convention was to set the duration of the amber stage to something around the time it takes a fast-walking pedestrian to cross, so that you could start crossing near the end of a pedestrian green signal without being on the road during green for drivers. Unfortunately at some crossings these days, the full duration of the green signal isn't long enough for me to fully cross before it turns to amber (and I probably walk about 4x faster than your garden-variety old dear with a stick).

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#305

Post by alkonaut » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

t0mas88 wrote: post #250

alkonaut wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, having 0.02% blood alcohol limit (I.e. effectively a zero tolerance) is a good and cheap start. Next comes the expensive things: Replace the car fleet with large, safe and modern cars. Build infrastructure like pedestrian walkways etc to have few unprotected people in traffic. Replace crossings with roundabouts and rebuild motorways and other high speed roads to never have oncoming traffic (separating r…

The safety increase of highway speedcameras is very limited. They help the environment and generate a lot of cash, but in terms of accidents the impact is very low because not a lot of accidents happen on highways with split lanes and only cars. And those that do happen are statistically much more related to alcohol, drugs, tired driving and adverse weather. In cities it's different, there even a 10 km/h reduction ma…

Why would you put the speed cameras on highways then? Here they are on 50-60km/h roads, some times 70. On faster roads they are only near crossings where the speed limit is reduced.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#306

Post by stephencanon » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #277

INTPenis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not different at all. Why would Norwegians be different from other humans? I can confirm that Swedes and danes do this too. And being of croatian descent I can confirm they do it there too. It's not a cultural thing, it's a human thing to be impatient. If anything it speaks of the flow of traffic. Here in Sweden you can often safely cross the street because the entire length of the street has lights that work…

It's a cultural thing. It even differs a lot by city in the US. In NYC, the mindset is take every inch you can get. In a lot of other places, pedestrians pay attention to walk/don't walk signals more than not.

Normal everywhere in the northeast. People think I'm crazy in CA, as a fairly cautious New England pedestrian.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#307

Post by mumblemumble » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

audunw wrote: post #295

whatshisface wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> suburbs don't have sidewalks Plenty of suburbs have sidewalks.

> Nobody complained because why would you want to walk miles to the closest grocery store anyway? I've been guests at a few different suburban neighborhoods in the US. I realize that some of these are so big and remote that it really is too far to walk to anything significant, but those I visited did have grocery stores and such within a walkeable distance, but that's not always the case, and still there's not much i…

> I'm really astonished that Americans don't do it the same way.

Americans tend to have strange ideas about walking. If they think about it at all, they tend to think of it as something that's only done in extremis.

I've discovered, for example, that, when I travel for work, it's generally useless to ask hotel staff if they can recommend any restaurants "within walking distance" when I'm staying in a suburban area. They will always say that there aren't any. Even when there are several within 500 meters of the hotel.

When I am visiting the main office (also in a suburban area) I stay about 1.5km away from the building. I choose to walk to get between there and the hotel. It's a lovely walk, all sidewalks, through a quiet neighborhood. My colleagues consider this to be very peculiar behavior. If someone recognizes me while I'm on the sidewalk, they'll stop, express concern, and ask me if I need a ride, and I generally have to assure them multiple times that I'm OK and I just prefer to walk.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#308

Post by InitialLastName » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #98

yason wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them You have to think what pedestrian lights are for. They exist solely to improve the flow of car traffic. Pedestrian lights are in gross contrast to the rights and benefits of pedestrians. Without lights, pedestrians would always have first priority on a crosswalk. Cars would have to stop for any pedestrian crossing the street. However, drivers (of inefficient but…

I am not sure what you mean with this effectiveness. I live in Prague, the city with (what they say) one of the best public transport systems in the world, and yet, going to my workplace is 45 minutes by public transport and 15 minutes by car. Even though I live close to a subway and tram station, and the workplace is right in the city center, car still wins - where is the effectiveness you're talking about? This is…

Is it possible that your easy car commute is made possible by nature of an effective public transit system removing cars from the road? And that without comprehensive transit you would have 45 minutes of traffic by car?

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#309

Post by el_cujo » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

nagash wrote: post #175

Here in Perth, Western Australia we have quite reasonable pedestrian right of way laws. But if you read the recommendations, you will notice the language talks about how it's basically still on you to not die. For example, pedestrians have right of way when crossing a street where a car may be turning in to, so there should really be no need to check across your shoulder for traffic. Most drivers don't seem aware of…

I don't know if this is true everywhere, but in my city in the US, cars are supposed to stop at crosswalks (not talking about at intersections necessarily) if a pedestrian is crossing even if there is no stopsign or signal beyond the white paint on the road, but this is NEVER observed in my experience. Thankfully it seems like most pedestrians don't know this either so we don't get people trying to challenge cars to make a point at risk of their own lives.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#310

Post by mumblemumble » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #287

whatshisface wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> suburbs don't have sidewalks Plenty of suburbs have sidewalks.

"Sidewalks to nowhere" don't count as sidewalks. They count as decoration.

Former suburbs kid here. I lived about 4 miles from the nearest grocery store. I used the sidewalks in my area all the time.

If you think that a sidewalk in a purely residential area only goes to nowhere, you spend way too much time looking at screens. Get out, meet, and spend some time with your neighbors.