Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#121

Post by komali2 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

greatscott404 wrote: post #80

shantly wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, then we can keep corporations around as long as we balance their government-enabled incredible labor rate negotiating position with something comparably effective for workers.

We have that it's called "supply and demand".

Glad you acknowledge that labor conditions (including salary) are a market.

As we know, there is a price floor and a price ceiling in a market, represented by the buyer and seller.

What we also know is that the price does not fall perfectly in the middle of that floor and ceiling - it benefits the person with more bargaining power.

A corporation has more bargaining power because it is a massive financial entity comprised of sometimes tens of thousands of people. Non unionized workers show up during a salary negotiation against that? One person with a family to feed and enough savings to survive maybe another 2 months without a job? Gee I wonder how imbalanced the bargaining power is there.

We allowed corporations to incorporate because of the advantages of doing so. We should allow the other half of the labor market-transaction to do the same, not only because it's fair, but because the union side reprents humans, while the corporate side reprents companies, which are not humans. It's kinda insane to want to give these non human conglomerates more power but hey vote with your values.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#122

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

greatscott404 wrote: post #110

pjc50 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a perfect world labor unions would be illegal

As in workers can't legally demand higher wages as a group, as in those negotiations won't be legally binding and fines would be imposed on strikers, no need to hit anyone.

> fines would be imposed on strikers

.. which won't be paid, and you have to deal with the picket line.

State fines for non-attendance at work? State fines for calling in sick? Seriously, this is how you get Chile. Or Venezuela.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#123

Post by komali2 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:06 PM UTC

nprz wrote: post #95

quotemstr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A union is just the free market at work. That's not the case. A union is an organization for extracting rents above those the market would ordinarily bear. Rent-seeking activity --- no matter who does it --- makes society as a whole worse off. Bastiat showed that a long time ago. When corporations organize to extract rents, we call them cartels and apply strict penalties under the law. Why should employees have a r…

Doesn't the practice of minimum wage and labor rights also allow the worker to "extract rents above those the market would ordinarily bear"? Do those practices make society as a whole worse off?

The libertarian or whatever this person identifies as will claim yes, which kind of goes to show that we should reject these anti-human economic philosophies, never mind the fact that they're economically unsound anyway.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#124

Post by gbronner » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:09 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #92

jedimastert wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees will go apeshit. Food is such a huge deal for the culture.

If you work in a tech company, you'll quickly realize that the food is something everyone focuses on to a disproportionate degree. This guy knows what he is talking about.

I asked a millennial why she cared so much about the free coffee, and she told me that it symbolizes the employer's 'caring' about the staff..

Personally, I'd rather earn an extra $25k and buy a few cups of coffee with it than get "free coffee".

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#125

Post by ryanseys » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:09 PM UTC

fallingfrog wrote: post #40

ryanseys wrote: post #8

Disclaimer: FTE at Verily (Google Life Sciences) Sounds like this isn't the first time this has happened and won't be the last. Both Compass (the firm that employs these cafeteria workers) and Google both have experience working with unions and are committed to working through this. Happy that these employees are getting the representation they deserve. I hope this means that these people will get better benefits tha…

“Committed to working through this” “Look forward to seeing the issue continue to get light” “Business priorities evolve” You didn’t say anything particularly disagreeable but I wonder if you realize how this kind of language comes across- this is the way people talk to you right before they fire you or take away your healthcare or something. This kind of business speak just screams, I’m someone who cannot be trusted…

Guess I've worked in the corporate machine for too long...

Thanks for keeping me in check. I didn't mean any harm from my comment but I can see where you're coming from, just wanted to give a summary of what the article seems to imply and a bit of perspective from the inside.

To me this whole thing feels like a complex issue with a lot of nuance, varying perspectives and information asymmetry, so downvotes don't surprise me.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#126

Post by jjeaff » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:10 PM UTC

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #86

freeopinion wrote: post #24

Imagine a gigantic apartment building in San Francisco. Let's say some 400-unit monster. Then picture a campus with four of those buildings. Then realize that such a campus could not house all the Google employees in the area. Then realize that such a campus could not house just the Google cafeteria workers in the area.

What is the point of this comment other than to say Google has a lot of employees?

I figured they just had the same reaction to the headline as me. "Wow I can't believe they have that many cafeteria workers".

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#127

Post by greatscott404 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #122

greatscott404 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As in workers can't legally demand higher wages as a group, as in those negotiations won't be legally binding and fines would be imposed on strikers, no need to hit anyone.

> fines would be imposed on strikers .. which won't be paid, and you have to deal with the picket line. State fines for non-attendance at work? State fines for calling in sick? Seriously, this is how you get Chile. Or Venezuela.

A striking union would be fined, they can figure out the allocation amongst themselves.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#128

Post by JamesLeonis » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

whatitdobooboo wrote: post #48

Does anyone have any good/neutral book recommendations on unionization?

A great book is No Shortcuts: Organizing for Power in the New Gilded Age by Jane McAlevey[1]. She specifically goes over history, organizing tactics, analysis about why some unions succeed vs others that don't, as well as how to transition from a bad/no union to one that is representative. Each have examples of recent strikes and efforts in the last decade.

Here's a quote that jumped out at me.

> According to Buffkin's congressional testimony, it was the [Smithfield Foods'] intent to replace blacks with Latinos with two objectives in mind: to keep the workforce divided through both instigation of racial conflict and overt segregation, and to create an undocumented immigrant workforce that the employer believed they could more easily control.

> [Key to success was] first earning legitimacy with each major constituency in the plant, and then bridging the divisions between them, creating unity and solidarity despite the extraordinary efforts by the boss to systematically pit worker against worker.

[1]: https://janemcalevey.com/book/no-shortcuts-organizing-for-po...

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#129

Post by zelon88 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:19 PM UTC

ryanseys wrote: post #8

Disclaimer: FTE at Verily (Google Life Sciences) Sounds like this isn't the first time this has happened and won't be the last. Both Compass (the firm that employs these cafeteria workers) and Google both have experience working with unions and are committed to working through this. Happy that these employees are getting the representation they deserve. I hope this means that these people will get better benefits tha…

> I look forward to seeing this issue continue to get light and hope that business priorities evolve to incorporate the more humanistic aspects of running a business instead of simply focusing on the bottom line all the time.

Do you really? Because the next step is automating the cafeteria.

When was the last time business priorities evolved to become more expensive?

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#130

Post by shantly » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 8:20 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #102

novok wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you work in a tech company, you'll quickly realize that the food is something everyone focuses on to a disproportionate degree. This guy knows what he is talking about.

I know a QA ex Google engineer that refused to ever work for a company with a cafeteria again solely because he got tired of people complaining about food that was free. It annoyed him that much.

I see the general principle guiding this and agree with it, but "free" food from an employer is just another form of comp and complaining about it's no more ungrateful than complaining about health benefits or salary. It's not like complaining about a Christmas gift or something.