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How My School and District Failed its Students

anurbanteacherseducation.com

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Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#61

Post by timwiseman »

narrator wrote: post #60

I think this is where all the zero tolerance policies come from. If there is any disciplinary decision that is made where there is discretion by an administrator, there is an opportunity for a lawsuit. With zero tolerance, you remove discretion so you avoid lawsuits at the expense of unnecessarily disciplining students.

I am not a lawyer, but I do no think having the policy would in any way protect against a lawsuit. If anything, I would suspect it could make it easier for one to succeed because you could show that no due process was provided when a state actor delivered a non-judicial punishment to a minor.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#62

Post by RickHull »

alexophile wrote: post #31

What I don't understand about all this is why there isn't a way to use these clearly failing schools for experiments in alternative styles of education. Say what you will about things like voluntary attendance, but when your school is descending into anarchy, it just seems like there's too little to lose not to go out on a limb. The school my mom used to work at was rampant with corruption and ineptitude. It was take…

> What I don't understand about all this is why there isn't a way to use these clearly failing schools for experiments in alternative styles of education.

As a resident New Yorker, I can answer this one: entrenched interests. There are a lot of people who have bought a lot of influence to achieve the status quo, and they don't really see what the problem is.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#63

Post by timwiseman »

maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

I must respectfully disagree, for a few somewhat related reasons.

First, for a democracy to function, the voters need to be at least sufficiently educated to understand the issues.

Second, for an advanced capitalistic society with heavy automation to function, the work force needs to be at least sufficiently educated to handle nontrivial jobs.

And third, minors, lacking in experience, often make decisions that their older self would regret. Right or wrong our society tries to protect them against at least the worst of these bad decisions. This is precisely why we permit minors to rescind contracts (under most circumstances).

Now, with all that said, I think our society might benefit from offering trade schools/apprenticeships more readily and earlier in the educational system then it currently does, given consent of both the minor and the gaurdian. This may prove more useful to many of them then an academic course that is largely geared towards the college admissions process.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#64

Post by jimbokun »

swift wrote: post #21
watchandwait wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was paddled in public school and I'd say that works pretty well for maintaining order.

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. I do not approve of running a school, or any organization, based on fear, much less the threat of physical violence. Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world? I don't think so. We shouldn't beat children just because they're smaller than us and can't fight back.

"Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world?"

Yes. We call them police, but instead of paddles, they have guns.

(Well, I guess in the U.K. they have a grown up kind of paddle?)

The fact that order is ultimately enforced with violence is an unpleasant constant of human societies.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#65

Post by jrwoodruff »

swift wrote: post #21
watchandwait wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was paddled in public school and I'd say that works pretty well for maintaining order.

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. I do not approve of running a school, or any organization, based on fear, much less the threat of physical violence. Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world? I don't think so. We shouldn't beat children just because they're smaller than us and can't fight back.

Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world?

Uhm, yes, except we call it the death penalty or, alternatively, life in prison.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#67

Post by krakensden »

jordan0day wrote: post #57
krakensden wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, you shouldn't beat children because they /can/ fight back. If you re-instated corporal punishment, schools in bad areas would be ridiculous almost immediately, and as soon as you get an out-of-control adult or a victimized-feeling student, someone is going to get a gun from their older cousin. Besides, when was the last time you were in a high school? The teachers are mostly older women, who most definitely…

Actually I'd be curious to see what would happen if corporal punishment was re-instated. I think your scenario derives from a hyperbolic world presented to us by a hype-machine media. I'm not sure it's really accurate. My hypothesis would be that it would in fact cut down on problems, though I won't deny that one or a few incidents like what you posit could happen. Truly "rotten apples", few in number as they may be,…

I went to a public high school less than ten miles away from Richmond High (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-27/justice/california.gang.r...), I may have a slightly skewed perspective. But on the other hand, I don't think corporal punishment would ever be an issue in richer school districts.

The part that scares me the most isn't the students though, it's the `adults'. The amount of evil and incompetence from the school board level down is astonishing. I wouldn't trust those people to take my order at a fast food restaurant.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#68

Post by krakensden »

tedunangst wrote: post #27
swift wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem obvious to me at all that forcing kids to attend school against their will results in them becoming "educated" in any meaningful sense.

Forcing them to attend school doesn't educate them, but it does reduce the number of young people "hanging around", which probably has benefits all on its own.

That's true, but mixing daycare and schooling often shortchanges the latter.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#69

Post by dfghjkfgh »

timwiseman wrote: post #61
narrator wrote: post #60

I think this is where all the zero tolerance policies come from. If there is any disciplinary decision that is made where there is discretion by an administrator, there is an opportunity for a lawsuit. With zero tolerance, you remove discretion so you avoid lawsuits at the expense of unnecessarily disciplining students.

I am not a lawyer, but I do no think having the policy would in any way protect against a lawsuit. If anything, I would suspect it could make it easier for one to succeed because you could show that no due process was provided when a state actor delivered a non-judicial punishment to a minor.

You throw kid A out of the class for behaviour, but you don't throw kid B out because he is usually OK.

But then kid A's parents get mad - or think they can make some money - and it turns out that kid A is belgian/green skinned/three eyed/an FSM worshipper and you have a lawsuit. Or at least the threat of a lawsuit which can go away with a large enough payment.

Throw out all kids that break any rule and you have been perfectly fair

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#70

Post by dfghjkfgh »

mynameishere wrote: post #5
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

I didn't downmod you, but it wouldn't work. It's a typical engineer's solution, you know? Sure, if you have 1 bad nut in a collection of 10 nuts, you just throw it away. But that's politically impossible with humans. The newspapers and the electorate would destroy anyone who tried it. At best you might be able to steer the no-goodnicks into the basement for "special" classes, but you could never, ever make your real…

I'm glad then that teachers don't go into engineering.

Another plane crashed today - one of the turbine blades was cracked but we decided to give it sensitivity training to get in touch with it's inner strength rather than callously replace it.

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