Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How My School and District Failed its Students

anurbanteacherseducation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 130 posts

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#21

Post by swift »

watchandwait wrote: post #11
mynameishere wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downmod you, but it wouldn't work. It's a typical engineer's solution, you know? Sure, if you have 1 bad nut in a collection of 10 nuts, you just throw it away. But that's politically impossible with humans. The newspapers and the electorate would destroy anyone who tried it. At best you might be able to steer the no-goodnicks into the basement for "special" classes, but you could never, ever make your real…

I was paddled in public school and I'd say that works pretty well for maintaining order.

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. I do not approve of running a school, or any organization, based on fear, much less the threat of physical violence. Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world? I don't think so. We shouldn't beat children just because they're smaller than us and can't fight back.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#22

Post by dkarl »

maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

Nobody can be forced to think, but they can be forced to do structured exercises that build knowledge and cognitive skills, which is what school is actually for. The kids from rich suburban schools who learn to read and write and get into selective universities aren't any more intellectually curious than other kids; they just accept the need to jump through hoops at school. They might seem a little more intellectually curious because their hoop-jumping gives them the intellectual tools needed to appreciate a broader variety of interesting things than their poor inner-city counterparts do, but it is all based on years of spending hours a day doing exercises that on any given day they would choose not to do if they were not driven by parental expectations and school discipline.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#23

Post by michaelchisari »

maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

From my knowledge of radical education approaches like Summerhill or Ferrer's Modern School, I would agree with that, with one caveat:

Students don't have to attend class. They just have to go to school. They can choose, on a daily basis, what class they want to be in. If they disrupt, they're kicked out of class for the day, since attendance at that class is a voluntary association.

To get credit and a grade for a class, you have to complete X homework assignments and pass Y amount of tests.

If a kid decides they wants to hang out all day in the cafeteria, good for them. Teachers might want to check in on them and see why or offer books or computer access to do some self-education.

You'd also want to diversify the classes if possible. Add classes in video game design, automotive engineering, etc. Make these classes enticing, and hard. Rope the kids in to hard classes by making them seem like blow-offs.

But most of all, let the kid choose to learn, and you have a lot more power over the kids who come in just to disrupt. You also have the added social pressure of the other kids, who will recognize that the disruptors don't have to be there and are only ruining it for everyone.

Never underestimate the motivating power of boredom.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#24

Post by kijinbear »

davidsiems wrote: post #15
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

While I agree that attendance should be voluntary this solution doesn't address the whole problem. Part of the problem is that education is not valued - neither by the kids, nor their parents. As a culture we need to make sure education is valued across the board. Another part of the problem is that once these kids are out of school they'll be causing trouble at home or in their neighborhoods. I think a better plan w…

> Make parents responsible for their kids. Right now a lot of parents treat school as daycare for their kids, they don't care what happens there as long as the kids aren't at home.

Absolutely agreed. There's very little that a school can do for a kid if the parents don't care what the kid does at school. I'm not sure the solution needs to involve expulsions, but parents definitely need to have a greater responsibility in their children's education. You can't just drop your kid off at school and mind your own business.

If greater parental involvement in education means that one of the parents can't have a full time job and save money for college, so be it. Especially if you're already middle-class! I'd much rather have a caring parent than an extra vacation. Well raised kids should be able to pay for college on their own, anyway.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#25

Post by novas0x2a »

If you want a more visceral account, "The Corner" by David Simon is a non-fiction chronicle of the Baltimore drug culture's effect on the people who live in it. Simon spent about year (~1993) following and interviewing the people who lived on a specific drug corner in Baltimore; one of those he followed was a high-school-age kid whose description is much like this teacher's description of M.W.

There's also an HBO miniseries based on it (which I haven't watched, so I can't vouch), and Season 4 of The Wire is partially about a Baltimore inner-city school (The Wire is fantastic). Simon also spent a year embedded with the Baltimore police homicide division, which became a book, a TV serial (called Homicide), and informed much of The Wire.

Some people are commenting that the solution to the problems at these schools is to completely give up on the troublemakers; I don't think it would be that clear-cut for you after you read or watch these. The kids you give up on are the ones lost to the hardcore drug culture forever. Those same kids are the ones that perpetuate the problem- there's a terrible feedback loop going on.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#26

Post by jmm »

swift wrote: post #14
frossie wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws I didn't downvote you, but I strongly disagree. I personally don't want to live in a society full of kids (did you see his percentages - up to 25%!!) that are considered unmanageable at age 12. If they are unmanageable at age 12, what do you think they are going to be at age 25? Angry, illiterate, jobless oh and yeah, still unmanageable. Or, in jail and unmanageabl…

If universal education was intended to solve these kinds of problems, it seems to me it has obviously failed. I strongly believe that social ills of this sort are FAR better addressed by trying to eliminate poverty than by trying to force kids to attend classes they are getting nothing out of. That being said, universal education can certainly be seen as an attempt to eliminate poverty. The problem is that the cause…

A false dichotomy and a broken analogy walk into a bar...

The choice isn't between universal access to education and easier expulsion. We need to find a better way to deal with the problem kids, and to improve our education system in general.

I understand that the analogy is seductive for you because it leads to a "throw them overboard" proclamation on utilitarian grounds. But it glosses over a facet of the school system -- it's not a logical necessity that failures are required for successes.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#27

Post by tedunangst »

swift wrote: post #17
jellicle wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way would it help society to have more uneducated young people hanging around?

It doesn't seem obvious to me at all that forcing kids to attend school against their will results in them becoming "educated" in any meaningful sense.

Forcing them to attend school doesn't educate them, but it does reduce the number of young people "hanging around", which probably has benefits all on its own.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#28

Post by rumplestetson »

jmm wrote: post #8
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

Ha. The pickle here is that we (the government, the bleeding hearts, those capable of compassion) have to acknowledge that these kids were dealt a pretty bad hand, and that they are, after all, still kids. So we owe them a fair shot and some patience -- it's not acceptable to give up on them as products of the system. Because in one way or another we're part of the system. And they're kids. My sister participated in…

If some people paid by other people want me to sit and listen to them all day and to think about what they want me to think about then it isn't "giving up on me" to let me go and do something else if I would prefer to do so.

It's simply acknowledging my status as a human being.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#29

Post by scootklein »

frossie wrote: post #6
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws I didn't downvote you, but I strongly disagree. I personally don't want to live in a society full of kids (did you see his percentages - up to 25%!!) that are considered unmanageable at age 12. If they are unmanageable at age 12, what do you think they are going to be at age 25? Angry, illiterate, jobless oh and yeah, still unmanageable. Or, in jail and unmanageabl…

You submit this as if mandatory truency laws will help them change between the ages of 12 and 25. The parent comment was making the point that if we're looking at a child whose parents and peer group don't care then they shouldn't be allowed to negatively affect the rest of the classroom.

With parental involvement and peer group being such an enormous pressure on kids, taking away 1 of the 2 toxic influencers can do wonders for the other 75-85% of the kids.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#30

Post by krakensden »

swift wrote: post #21
watchandwait wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was paddled in public school and I'd say that works pretty well for maintaining order.

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. I do not approve of running a school, or any organization, based on fear, much less the threat of physical violence. Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world? I don't think so. We shouldn't beat children just because they're smaller than us and can't fight back.

Actually, you shouldn't beat children because they /can/ fight back. If you re-instated corporal punishment, schools in bad areas would be ridiculous almost immediately, and as soon as you get an out-of-control adult or a victimized-feeling student, someone is going to get a gun from their older cousin.

Besides, when was the last time you were in a high school? The teachers are mostly older women, who most definitely cannot afford to play a game of physical escalation with teenage boys.

Post reply on HN