Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How My School and District Failed its Students

anurbanteacherseducation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 130 posts

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#51

Post by maxharris »

jellicle wrote: post #9
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

In what way would it help society to have more uneducated young people hanging around?

How are kids that crumple assignments, throw things at teachers when their backs are turned, yell in the classroom, etc., getting educated?

And what does it mean for something to be in "society's interest," anyway? I'm honestly unsure of what that means.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#52

Post by jrwoodruff »

swift wrote: post #17
jellicle wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way would it help society to have more uneducated young people hanging around?

It doesn't seem obvious to me at all that forcing kids to attend school against their will results in them becoming "educated" in any meaningful sense.

It does mean, hopefully, that they continue to be exposed to new information and new people and that they may, should they choose, decide to take education seriously at any point with relatively little difficulty.

Dropping out makes it much, much more difficult to return, or even to decide to return.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#53

Post by kijinbear »

kleinsch wrote: post #46
kijinbear wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make parents responsible for their kids. Right now a lot of parents treat school as daycare for their kids, they don't care what happens there as long as the kids aren't at home. Absolutely agreed. There's very little that a school can do for a kid if the parents don't care what the kid does at school. I'm not sure the solution needs to involve expulsions, but parents definitely need to have a greater responsibilit…

In most Teach for America schools, the choice for some families isn't between parents working to pay for college vs being involved in their child's school. It's a choice between parents working vs the family not eating. When the parents are struggling with subsistence, it's not surprising that they're less concerned with their kids grades.

Although the article only talks about TFA schools, the problem of parents treating school like daycare is not limited to poor neighborhoods. Too many parents seem to think that they're somehow absolved from all parental responsibility as soon as they drop their kids off at school. A large percentage of those parents don't have subsistence as an excuse.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#54

Post by jordan0day »

swift wrote: post #21
watchandwait wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was paddled in public school and I'd say that works pretty well for maintaining order.

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. I do not approve of running a school, or any organization, based on fear, much less the threat of physical violence. Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world? I don't think so. We shouldn't beat children just because they're smaller than us and can't fight back.

Meh.

While I never received physical punishment at school (I do believe it occasionally happened at my elementary school, I never got into that level of trouble there), I was occasionally spanked by my parents when I acted rotten. I don't resent my parents for it, in fact I think they're great people and love them very much. I knew at the time why I was receiving that punishment, and I'm mature enough enough now to respect them for it.

"I do not approve of running a school, or any organization, based on fear, much less the threat of physical violence." You've made a leap here that I don't think holds up. The fact that I could have received a spanking at school or that I did receive spankings at home doesn't mean either my school or my home was run "based on fear" or "the threat of physical violence." A spanking is essentially a last resort, and you know it. That's hardly "basing" anything on fear.

"We shouldn't beat children just because they're smaller than us and can't fight back." The line between basic corporal punishment of a kid who refuses to be reasonable and beating a child is a broad one. Equivocating may make your position feel superior, but it's not accurate.

That's not to say corporal punishment in the schools is a grand idea... in part because there are people out there who would enjoy hitting kids, and so screening for that kind of trait would be important. I don't get the feeling your statement was really based on any sort of reasonable accounting of those odds, though. I'd love to hear how you've arrived at your opinion regarding corporal punishment, though. It's not an unpopular one, so I don't think you're some kind of weirdo or something, I'd just be interested in knowing what kind of background you're coming from.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#55

Post by protomyth »

jmm wrote: post #41
protomyth wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up to what age do you consider them "just kids"?

Just because the line is fuzzy doesn't mean there isn't one. (I'm not sure if you're trying to weaken my argument by challenging the idea of childhood altogether (which would be weird), or if you're just curious. If it's the former, we're probably not going to have a productive discussion. If it's the latter, I'm open to suggestions, though it probably deserves the attention of an educational psychologist or someone…

Its the later (if I was challenging your argument, I would have stated my reasons). I think their is a huge difference in strategies / reason between the 12 and under set and the 13+ set. The article seemed like it was talking about 12 and under, but I wasn't really sure what your use of "kid" referred too.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#56

Post by scott_s »

maxklein wrote: post #36

I come from a family of educators & private school owners, and if a teacher cannot handle a disruptive class, then we change the teacher. Children are ALWAYS disruptive. It's the natural state of things. Some teachers can solve the problem, and some can't. If a teacher cannot solve the problem, it's not the fault of the Government, or the Community, or the Principal or the Students. It's the fault of the teacher. It'…

Kicking a kid out of class is a teacher's nuclear option. If the students know that being kicked out of class will have no repercussions, then you remove not just that option, but the threat of it.

In a classroom, the teacher's authority derives from the school. If the school does not backup the teacher's authority, then the teacher has none. (Within reason - I don't want schools to backup teachers who make poor choices as to how to wield their authority.)

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#57

Post by jordan0day »

krakensden wrote: post #30
swift wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. I do not approve of running a school, or any organization, based on fear, much less the threat of physical violence. Is this something that would be appropriate for the adult world? I don't think so. We shouldn't beat children just because they're smaller than us and can't fight back.

Actually, you shouldn't beat children because they /can/ fight back. If you re-instated corporal punishment, schools in bad areas would be ridiculous almost immediately, and as soon as you get an out-of-control adult or a victimized-feeling student, someone is going to get a gun from their older cousin. Besides, when was the last time you were in a high school? The teachers are mostly older women, who most definitely…

Actually I'd be curious to see what would happen if corporal punishment was re-instated. I think your scenario derives from a hyperbolic world presented to us by a hype-machine media. I'm not sure it's really accurate. My hypothesis would be that it would in fact cut down on problems, though I won't deny that one or a few incidents like what you posit could happen. Truly "rotten apples", few in number as they may be, are in every part of the population. This is also why re-instating corporal punishment would be extra-hard -- there will be "rotten apples" doling it out, too.

Also, to address your second point, when I was in elementary school and a few kids did receive corporal punishment, it was always meted out by a principal, and not directly by the teacher.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#58

Post by spidaman »

maxklein wrote: post #36

I come from a family of educators & private school owners, and if a teacher cannot handle a disruptive class, then we change the teacher. Children are ALWAYS disruptive. It's the natural state of things. Some teachers can solve the problem, and some can't. If a teacher cannot solve the problem, it's not the fault of the Government, or the Community, or the Principal or the Students. It's the fault of the teacher. It'…

A big difference between private schools and urban public schools is the level of parent involvement. I've seen both up close and personal. It's not just involvement in school functions but involvement in their kid's education before and after school as well. The kids that are acting out in school probably don't have parents who can/will be involved in their homework, who can take the call during school hours or come in to meet their kid's teachers.

If the kids are raised by single parents, parents who have to work long and underpaid hours or parents who have substance abuse and/or crime issues the best teacher in the world will not, in most cases, be able to have impact. Yes, there are exceptions. And teachers need to be accountable for what they do in their classrooms. But the pervasive problems can't just be blamed on the teachers alone, the problems need to be addressed by promoting family support systems, promoting teachers who care and school systems provisioned with resources.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#60

Post by narrator »

I think this is where all the zero tolerance policies come from. If there is any disciplinary decision that is made where there is discretion by an administrator, there is an opportunity for a lawsuit. With zero tolerance, you remove discretion so you avoid lawsuits at the expense of unnecessarily disciplining students.
Post reply on HN