Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#71

Post by yters » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:43 AM UTC

50 wrote: post #16

Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I like the organized structure of college w/ professors, peers, etc. Am I getting into debt? A fair bit. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years from now? Most likely. Because here's the thing: education as a means to an end…

I think you are taking an excellent route, but don't think you can't have both: a philosophy degree (spectacular!) and a decent living.

Analytic philosophy is very STEMish. Majoring in the logically rigorous courses sets you up for many monied disciplines (besides programming). Even better if you can minor in something like coding, accounting, or even a trade.

Doing ROTC can get you a scholarship, guaranteed job out of college, many opportunities beyond, and serving in the military is in itself a worthwhile endeavor.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#72

Post by seem_2211 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

amiga_500 wrote: post #51

seem_2211 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to university in a country with a Gini coefficient of .35, and now live in a country with a Gini coefficient of .39 (See OECD link below) The funny thing is, my student loan is one of the highest out of my American friend group† (although very normal amongst my NZ peers). Unlike the US, there was a lot less much in the way of financial aid/scholarships available, so sticker price was what people actually paid.…

Interesting. I knew NZ was pretty messed up but I didn't realise it was that bad. The friend bit is anecdata. Looks like NZ avg debt is $28k NZD [1] USA is $29 USD [2] So USA is 50% more expensive, on avg (NZDUSD 1.5). IMHO both are a disgrace, but that's another thing. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_New_Zealand#S... 2: https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

Yeah it's not great!

There's fairly decent financial aid available to cover your living costs if you're from a low income family, but that cuts off pretty quickly, and unlike the US, there isn't really a culture of paying for your children's education, so there's a lot of kids (like me) who grew up upper-middle class but didn't get much help through university.

Overall, I'd equate the USD = NZD as realtively equivalent, even though there is a currency difference. The average American is graduating into a job paying $51k USD, whereas NZ grads are often starting at $50-55k NZD.

[1] https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/compensatio...

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#73

Post by war1025 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:45 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #63

ransom1538 wrote: post #18

A person in our family is a specialized nurse. Two years of school, then some more training. $60hr any hour they "wish" to work. Saturdays/Sundays are $90hr, so is any hour after 8 hours. The demand is so high he just rejects work. If he wants to work in American Samoa or Miami: hired. I hired a person to install a garage door. $900 for an hour of work. My plumber wont show up for a 30 minute $300 job. I will call ag…

What prevents the MSc baristas from picking up a trade? Then they'd be highly educated and making some money.

Pride I'd guess. Or possibly coming from a background where they don't realize that skilled labor is an option. Many people seem to think that doing physical labor is "below" them. Nevermind the fact that being a barista / waiting tables / etc. is no walk in the park either.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#74

Post by esotericn » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:47 AM UTC

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #56

What all these studies always fail to factor is that a college degree will give you an advantage over someone that does not have one in just about any situation. Just the fact that you have one will signal to the potential employer that you can accomplish goals, meet a deadline and the many things you need to deal with to get a degree over those that don't have one. The real question is, "Does an ivy league degree, a…

I also find the analysis strange because it depends heavily on whether you're profit focused.

If you are, then the average outcome probably doesn't matter to you, because you're going to select for profitability in your degree choice, you're going to move around for work, continuously study and train in adult life, and generally you're gonna be fine financially (if perhaps not emotionally, oho).

If you're not profit focused - if you're doing the degree primarily and substantially because you love X and want to do X - then what do you care if it doesn't pay back? You got to be an X! The question is almost irrelevant.

I think a lot of analysis suffers from this averaging effect whereby actually that average person doesn't exist.

There is no realistic path that would have lead to me making the average income for my cohort, for example, because I'm just not that sort of person - I'd rather just go relatively all out, or else work for a non-profit or scrappy startup or whatever, so I either bin high or low.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#75

Post by war1025 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:48 AM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #37

amiga_500 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skilled manual work. Cannot be outsourced.

> Skilled manual work. Cannot be outsourced. But it can be dramatically diluted through lenient immigration policies (and that's exactly what happened). Bottom line, you have to be clever stay on your toes to make it in today's economy, and even then you need lots of luck and excellent health. UBI would result in a much more just society.

I think UBI is a step too far. What we really need (in my opinion, obviously) is dramatic restructuring of the healthcare system. There is absolutely no reason that the single largest expense in my life should be insuring against the possibility that my family catches some terrible illness.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#76

Post by seem_2211 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:48 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #61

seem_2211 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument you put forward doesn't make sense. It's not a ripoff to make close to minimum wage for a number of years (and possibly take on high levels of student loan debt), all to work in a field where there is an oversupply of labour that depresses wages? Ok...

My experience is the work in academia is more interesting and intellectually stimulating than my high paying tech jobs. That would be one motivation to go the academia route instead of the tech route. If you come out the other end of a PhD, then you have the opportunity for best of both worlds: high paying job to work on the problems you find intellectually stimulating. Also, it is cliche, but doing a PhD does train…

Yeah fair points. I was sick of studying by the time I graduated - I enjoyed my experience at University, but I wanted to get into the private sector (probably worth mentioning that I studied business at the undergrad level, so I think a lot of that 'postgrad research' in marketing for example is suspect at best).

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#77

Post by astura » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

ReallyAnonymous wrote: post #10

ryanmercer wrote: post #2

I don't have a degree and am constantly told in rejections by potential employers, and my own employer when applying for advancement, that they are looking for degree holders. Many job listings also flat out state a 4-year degree is a minimum. A degree would absolutely, positively, beyond any shadow of a doubt improve my chances of increasing my income. At my current job only about 7%. But the tens of thousands of do…

my gf just finished her nurse practitioner degree and while she increased her salary from 60k to 90k, her student loan payments, with some loans being 10% !, eat up all of her increased income. She's happier, but after all the bills, she has the same left over. So from an economic standpoint, she got an advanced degree that benefitted her school and the bank.

That is only true if student loan payments are for a lifetime, but mine were only ten year loans if I paid the bare minimum. You're also ignoring her future pay, salary increases are cumulative.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#78

Post by mennis16 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #56

What all these studies always fail to factor is that a college degree will give you an advantage over someone that does not have one in just about any situation. Just the fact that you have one will signal to the potential employer that you can accomplish goals, meet a deadline and the many things you need to deal with to get a degree over those that don't have one. The real question is, "Does an ivy league degree, a…

Harvard (and similar schools) give very generous aid, not to mention that one can easily transition to consulting or similar no matter their major if they came from Harvard. The considerations for Ivy+ schools are not the same as the considerations that are being discussed in this article/thread. The people that are actually ending up screwed with debt went to mid tier (or worse) private schools for the most part, or possibly mediocre out of state public options.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#79

Post by war1025 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:53 AM UTC

astura wrote: post #65

bootlooped wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are plumbers actually working 40 billable hours a week? And how much are they working that is not billable (driving from site to site)? I would be surprised if they made more in a year than educated STEM professionals. The attention-getting per-hour rate might not be a great metric.

2018 median pay is $53,910 per year https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/mobile/p...

Which, to be clear, is nothing to sneeze at in large parts of the country.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#80

Post by 50 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:54 AM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #70

50 wrote: post #16

Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I like the organized structure of college w/ professors, peers, etc. Am I getting into debt? A fair bit. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years from now? Most likely. Because here's the thing: education as a means to an end…

Do you think your opinion will change at all as time goes by and you’re left with a large debt to pay off, and a degree that you know will likely not have any impact on your earning potential? It’s great that you’re satisfying your intellectual needs. But a lot of people in your exact position eventually end up wanting other people to foot the bill.

Thank you for question! And no, I don't think so. I think the important thing here to note is that studying philosophy―particularly phenomenology, existentialism, and theology―feels all-encompassing true and real compared to that of anything else, at least for me personally, at the moment. And anyways, as I noted on another comment on this thread: I don't mind what happens. I don't mind working a blue collar job to repay my loans or in order to make a living. Even despite stemming from a first-gen, low-income household and sometimes having this strong, finger-aching yearning to take care of my parents financially, I don't mind what happens because things, I hold, work out in their own imperfect perfection. Again, as naive as this all may sound.