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Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

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Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#11

Post by kevindong »

ryanmercer wrote: post #2

I don't have a degree and am constantly told in rejections by potential employers, and my own employer when applying for advancement, that they are looking for degree holders. Many job listings also flat out state a 4-year degree is a minimum. A degree would absolutely, positively, beyond any shadow of a doubt improve my chances of increasing my income. At my current job only about 7%. But the tens of thousands of do…

A dirty secret of higher education is that few people actually pay the sticker price. A lot of people get some degree of funding via pseudo-automatic scholarships.

The government is heavily involved in the student loan industry. Consequently, the entire market is heavily distorted. One of the largest programs is the Direct/Stafford loan program [0]. Essentially the student (and only the student; no cosigners allowed) directly borrows money from the federal government at a fairly cheap interest rate (in the last decade [1], it has ranged from 3.4% to 5.05%). In some cases, the student is not liable for interest accrued while they're in school (see the following paragraph for details if you're interested). The loan limit is $31k for dependent students and $57.5k for independent students.

There's two variants to direct loans: subsidized (where the government pays for the interest while the student is in school) and unsubsidized (no qualification necessary). Anyone can take out unsubsidized loans, limited to the COA (cost of attendance: the amount a college declares it would cost to attend; inclusive of tuition, fees, books, room & board, etc.). Anyone who's EFC (expected family contribution: the amount the government expects the student/their parents to pay annually based upon their income and assets) is less than COA can take out up to the shortfall in subsidized loans (but no more than the specified limit which varies by dependent-status and year in school).

[0]: https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/subsidized...

[1]: https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/interest-r...

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#12

Post by seem_2211 »

I have a degree from a no-name university in New Zealand. I'd do it again for a few pragmatic reasons.

1: Lots of companies will reject you on sight without a degree. I don't think it's a good thing, but it is reality.

2: With a degree your ability to move overseas dramatically improves. I moved to America after graduating. I flat out couldn't have done that without a degree. Points based systems immigration systems like New Zealand have dramatic bonuses for people with degrees.

3: You don't have to jump through the hoops and explain why you don't have a degree all the time. Stupid reason I know, but it's something I've seen friends without degrees have to do constantly - and not just in career situations. As I mentioned, I went to a no-name university. If you live in NZ, you'll know it. If you're an American, chances are, you've never heard of it. But because I have a degree, it doesn't ever really come up.

4: The cost isn't that bad, when you spread it out over a career. My degree & living costs cost about $60k NZD (~$40k USD). That's $1k USD / year, or $.50 per hour. Considering how my income has multiplied in the few years since I've graduated (SF wages help tremendously here), the actual cost is barely anything, even when you control for the opportunity cost of studying.

Where I think College returns make a lot less sense

• Paying out of state tuition for lifestyle reasons, when you're going into a relatively low paid field afterwards (e.g. teaching).

• Paying private school tuition at a school without a strong reputation

• Grad school, in general, seems to be a rip off

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#14

Post by xenihn »

seem_2211 wrote: post #12

I have a degree from a no-name university in New Zealand. I'd do it again for a few pragmatic reasons. 1: Lots of companies will reject you on sight without a degree. I don't think it's a good thing, but it is reality. 2: With a degree your ability to move overseas dramatically improves. I moved to America after graduating. I flat out couldn't have done that without a degree. Points based systems immigration systems…

Moving overseas is the top benefit of having a relevant (not just any) degree IMO. I'm grateful that American cities are still the best places in the world to work as a software engineer, but that could always change. I'm hoping a non-STEM degree combined with 6+ years of experience will still let me move around easily.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#15

Post by throwawayjava »

cm2012 wrote: post #7

I can't find the citation now but the biggest argument against college I've seen is that once you control for family income, life success is way more correlated to SAT scores/the college's you apply for than the ones you actually attend. This would imply that college success stats merely indicate that they are selective in who they choose to enroll. EDIT: Its not the one I'm looking for, but I found a good one. http:…

Those studies say something more like "UW Madison/U Washington/UIUC really do give you as good an education as the ivies" and quite a bit less like "college doesn't matter/is just a signal".

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#16

Post by 50 »

Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I like the organized structure of college w/ professors, peers, etc. Am I getting into debt? A fair bit. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years from now? Most likely. Because here's the thing: education as a means to an end is not what it's all about, and so many of us subscribe to this fiction―to this warm stupor of society's fictions―that we forget what it is truly about. College will always be worth it such that you have an endless curiosity or enjoy erring in the direction of learning which is deeply rooted into failing, or rather, not understanding, over and over again.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#17

Post by cm2012 »

throwawayjava wrote: post #15
cm2012 wrote: post #7

I can't find the citation now but the biggest argument against college I've seen is that once you control for family income, life success is way more correlated to SAT scores/the college's you apply for than the ones you actually attend. This would imply that college success stats merely indicate that they are selective in who they choose to enroll. EDIT: Its not the one I'm looking for, but I found a good one. http:…

Those studies say something more like "UW Madison/U Washington/UIUC really do give you as good an education as the ivies" and quite a bit less like "college doesn't matter/is just a signal".

I have read that study, but I'm actually digging for a separate study now. I remember it split SAT score, educational attainment, and average salary into separate variables. For people with high SAT scores, average salary 10 years post graduation was basically the same regardless of level of education.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#18

Post by ransom1538 »

A person in our family is a specialized nurse. Two years of school, then some more training. $60hr any hour they "wish" to work. Saturdays/Sundays are $90hr, so is any hour after 8 hours. The demand is so high he just rejects work. If he wants to work in American Samoa or Miami: hired. I hired a person to install a garage door. $900 for an hour of work. My plumber wont show up for a 30 minute $300 job. I will call again, tomorrow fingers crossed. Get your brakes replaced - look at that bill. Try outsourcing that.

Everyone I meet that works at starbucks has a masters AND 90k in student debt. Bankruptcy doesn't make student loans go away.

I think things are about to start swinging in the "non-college" direction.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#19

Post by awat »

Personally I feel like, one one of the variables that isn’t considered in the returns conversation is time. Lots of employers have reimbursement programs that can be used while working up even of you currently work in big retail or corporate food.

It will likely take much longer but will leave you in a more controllable financial situation in the interim.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#20

Post by walleeee »

seem_2211 wrote: post #12

I have a degree from a no-name university in New Zealand. I'd do it again for a few pragmatic reasons. 1: Lots of companies will reject you on sight without a degree. I don't think it's a good thing, but it is reality. 2: With a degree your ability to move overseas dramatically improves. I moved to America after graduating. I flat out couldn't have done that without a degree. Points based systems immigration systems…

Grad school is often funded in the U.S. (PhD at least, masters not so much)
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