I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams • Hacker News Board

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#361

Post by jimbob45 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #112

> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,” That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about. I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay off in under 10 years without a miracle. I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well invo…

Counterpoint: I want to see college eliminated. The idea doesn't make as much sense in the modern world and codifies the idea that companies shouldn't have to train their own employees (and raises an artificial barrier to entry!).

Subsidizing collegiate institutions might cement practices that should perhaps change as time goes on. Does it truly make sense for every kid to go to school for four years? Perhaps three years would do just as well? How and when will we change the funding to each institution to accommodate that? Will the institutions be able to transition well to a three-year model? The free market is able to make such changes as fast as need be. The regulated market would push back against changes that may be necessary.

I'm not saying college isn't necessary or that it isn't too expensive. I too am alarmed at the number of bankrupted kids and the hordes of immigrants stealing jobs that we should rightfully be able to fill best. However, I am saying that rushing to the solution of free college may introduce unforeseen problems in the future.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#362

Post by braindeath » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #98

hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

> Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without.

Applying population statistics to individuals is a fool’s errand.

Not everyone is cut out to be a software engineer.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#363

Post by jimbob45 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #239

slowhand09 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no free. Free means Janet's dad who didn't go to college get to pay additional so Bill's son goes for free. When resources are free, they become either worthless or completely over-utilized. If you make college free, that means colleges will still charge for classes, still charge for books, still charge for dorm rooms, etc. They'll send their bills to the government, to pay with increased tax dollars. They'l…

You should realize that primary and secondary school are already provided "free" to anyone, and the reasons that works are just as valid for college. There's nothing magically impossible about using taxpayer money to provide 16 years of education instead of 12.

That's different though. High school educations are entirely uniform across the board.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#364

Post by peter303 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

50 years ago parents didnt always pay for a college education. A student could pretty much earn his/her way through working quarter-time during school year and full time in the summer. Thats what I did (at MIT). These days college costs are proportionally much higher.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#365

Post by baylisscg » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:30 PM UTC

starpilot wrote: post #304

criddell wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've suggested to my kids that they study two separate areas. I think it makes you stand out in a very good way if, for example, you have a dual computer science / art history degree. I'm lucky though because my kids are dual US-Canada citizens. They can go to university in Canada and it's very inexpensive.

I asked a mechanical engineer in hiring if a double major on a resume made any difference to him. He said that if the major was not related to engineering, he really didn't care about it. They're paying you to be an engineer, nothing more. I studied Russian and in aerospace engineering in the US, employers absolutely did not care about it. I now resent the time/money spent on that coursework, and wish I had taken sta…

When you hybridise like that it’s up to you to highlight the benefits. As you point out it’s much easier to do that with closely related fields. You need to have an idea of what the one field brings to the other. If you don’t know and can’t articulate that how is the hiring manager supposed to?

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#366

Post by cscurmudgeon » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:32 PM UTC

qualqual wrote: post #325

rayiner wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's convince taxpayers to raise taxes to pay for those things first, then worry about subsidizing four years of binge drinking and sex for middle class kids.

Student debt is a main driver of poverty and homelessness. Solving the student-debt crisis will reduce the poverty and homelessness and reduce the burden placed on programs meant to deal with those issues. It may be cheaper in the short term to just pay into those services, but why should people suffer before getting relief, when suffering could be prevented altogether? Also, your impression about what college studen…

> Student debt is a main driver of poverty and homelessness.

Source? Especially for the homelessness part.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#367

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:34 PM UTC

non-entity wrote: post #258

tmpz22 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with vocational training that /r/personalfinance and similar forums trumpet is that it often points directly to manual labor which leads to severe physical decline and often injury. I hope industries such as plumbing, welding, HVAC, construction, etc. have improved and now teach best practices for safe lifting, mandatory physical therapy, and enforce them - but I don't think they do. Effectively what we'r…

But can you make much money doing many of these trades? Pulling up glassdoor for several jobs typically parroted as "high paid" show you maxing out at $40k-$50k at the very most without niche specializations. And that's with a decade+ of experience. The pay for the entry level / apprenticeship work is insulting and you could make that at a call center. At least in my area that's what I've seen.

Electricians have a median pay of $55,000 which is a good bit higher than the average pay of $38,000. And I don't think anyone is recommending kids become electricians instead of petroleum engineers but maybe instead of history majors/baristas.

Call center is also entry level, so I don't know why an entry level electrician should get paid much more than what someone at a call center makers.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#368

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:39 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #315

fzeroracer wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the same be said about any level of education? The law of averages means that yes, on average not everyone is going to see massive success. That doesn't meant we should deprive them the right to get an education.

What does the law of averages have to say about 435 out of 2 million? My point is that Rayiner was more right than the parent comment: AOC's election doesn't refute the point that a huge number of humanities degree recipients are durably underemployed.

A "huge number"? Rayiner offered a few anecdotes about a few people a few years out of college... he brought up AOC; I merely tried to highlight how silly it was to draw any kind of conclusion from (that) one person.

I know the uselessness of humanities degrees is an article of faith among developers, but the data do not support it.

> It’s also interesting that although it’s a popular target of those who insist that a college education should connect to a good job, majors in “Liberal Arts and Sciences, General Studies, and Humanities” left a scant 18,824 underemployed grads after five years. “English Language and Literature/Letters” had just 16,422 similarly underemployed. And the major with the fewest underemployed graduates, according to the report, was “Foreign Languages, Literature, and Linguistics.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2018/05/31/its-not-...

AAAS found that humanities degree holders earn less on average than those holding engineering or computer science degrees but have nearly equal levels of employment and job satisfaction:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/07/study-finds-h...

Georgetown found that STEM jobs pay more, but that across all degrees, BA holders have almost twice the median earnings of those with only a high school degree. Some associates degrees beat some BA majors.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/5rules/?mod=article_i...

I haven't found any data I'd think of as "huge numbers"--especially if one looks at longer career durations.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#369

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #98

hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

> Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without.

This isn't quite true. What's true is people with degrees earn way more than people without them. But people /w degrees don't equal people without degrees.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#370

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 11:52 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #253

roenxi wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also another aspect to the correlation-causation argument. The kids in college are presumably the smart ones in the cohort. We expect them to have much better outcomes than the rest based on intelligence even without getting a degree.

Does intelligence correlate to either education or wealth? I didn't think it did...

It correlates strongly with education, reasonably well with income, and only little with wealth.