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I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

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Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#231

Post by zdragnar »

hajile wrote: post #207
lsc wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some of my kids seem like they enjoy academics, but others do not. I'll be pushing the latter toward trade school. Average IBEW (electrical union) pay is about $20/hr for an apprentice and $33 for a journeyman. $40,000 to $66,000 with ZERO DEBT right out the gate is nothing to ignore (and that pay can easily double -- especially in your younger years -- if you're willing to travel and put in those extra hours). It s…

College doesn't make someone smart. College doesn't make someone choose to be productive. The decisions that lead to being smart and productive start early in childhood. Unfortunately, dollars spent on early education don't seem to have much of a correlation with success later in life.

More than that, many degrees (especially in the liberal arts) are, economically speaking, luxury goods. They may teach things that benefit society on some level, but the cost of procuring them isn't offset by low wages and scarcity of the relevant jobs.

In a way, they form a bit of a poverty / class mobility trap for those who aren't well off enough to afford them on their own but are attracted by the idea of a purpose-driven life (social work, librarian, historian, identity studies come to mind).

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#232

Post by WalterSear »

m11a wrote: post #218
WalterSear wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> self-taught programming and design skills. This is essentially my story too, but IMHE, it hasn't been a realistic option for the people I have known who "don't like academics," and consequently struggled or opted out of the system. (Fwiw, I couldn't stand academics. However, through dint of self study, it didn't prevent me from graduating.)

There's many viable routes that don't have to be academic. I hate the idea of universities being pushed down everyone's throat. They're higher education institutions and should be for people actually interested in academics and possibly/likely research. Half of the 'degrees' we have now are not academic, and half of these universities shouldn't even exist. I think all routes are fine. Everyone has different interests…

That may be the case, but I'd still wager that, for the majority, self-study isn't a viable route - particularly in technology.

(And, IMHO, the many alternatives to academia aren't nearly the rosey picture you purport, particularly for people who hope to be sure of employment in a decade or two. It's clear that, while many will still be here, many won't.)

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#234

Post by slowhand09 »

pnathan wrote: post #112

> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,” That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about. I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay off in under 10 years without a miracle. I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well invo…

There is no free. Free means Janet's dad who didn't go to college get to pay additional so Bill's son goes for free. When resources are free, they become either worthless or completely over-utilized. If you make college free, that means colleges will still charge for classes, still charge for books, still charge for dorm rooms, etc. They'll send their bills to the government, to pay with increased tax dollars. They'll increase their rates to the gov't also. Professors and administrators aren't working for free. Groundskeepers either. TA's won't either because now they don't have tuition. Professors workloads just increased because normally they have TA's to teach and grade for them. So more professors are hired. Notice anything interesting? College costs which keep increasing as long as easy student loans are available, (and are responsible for the higher costs) just went up more. Now taxes are increasing and additional gov't administration for programs are implemented. Looks like a major redistribution of wealth, from taxpayers to educational institutions. :-/ This is my surprised face.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#235

Post by gbronner »

Private colleges increasingly practice perfect price discrimination making it an incredibly high income tax on the middle class.

A small few give breaks for academically better students, or don't attempt to fully maximize their price (e.g. Harvard could easily charge $100k/year), but for the great majority, the price you pay is basically "as much as you can".

Because of subsidized student loans and jobs that require "credentialization", there's guaranteed supply and guaranteed demand for these rather expensive slots, and no incentive to deliver quality education at a lower price.

Until there's either a dramatic decline in wealthy college students, a drop in government loan support, a decline in the proportion of jobs that absolutely require a BA, or some sort of innovation in virtual college, I don't see this changing.

Telling a kid that you aren't willing to

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#236

Post by dragonwriter »

jki275 wrote: post #219
btilly wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 3 nephews who served in the military. 2 have PTSD, one severe. The one with severe PTSD also got to spend 6 months in a hospital after being shot out of the air in a conflict that we are theoretically not involved in. Given their other options, military service might have been a good thing. But the odds of PTSD or injury are much, much higher than I would like.

I served in the military for twenty three years. My sample size is thousands of times yours. The odds are very low.

> The odds are very low.

The odds are very high for post-9/11 veterans (and higher the more of their period of service is post-9/11 within that group), who are more likely to have been deployed and seen combat than veterans of earlier eras (both because of optempo and organizational changes that have increased the teeth to tail ratio of uniformed services as support functions have been moved to contracted support.)

There are ample actual studies of this, we don't need to rely on the “sample size” of competing anecdotal reports.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#237

Post by seibelj »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #120
seattle_spring wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of the reason you go to school as a young person is that you do not have a family to feed or a house to pay off. If you go to art school as a young person, you won't have the problem of paying off a house because you won't have a job that qualifies you for a mortgage.

My wife went to art school and is (somewhat embarrassing to me) supporting our family with her job at Amazon while I (a CS PhD) am looking for work. We even qualify for a mortgage with her income. (Lesson: UX designers are as important as programmers)

That’s surprising to me. Why is it so hard to find a job with your CS PhD? Are you trying to get a specific research-oriented job?

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#238

Post by seibelj »

elil17 wrote: post #123
seattle_spring wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of the reason you go to school as a young person is that you do not have a family to feed or a house to pay off. If you go to art school as a young person, you won't have the problem of paying off a house because you won't have a job that qualifies you for a mortgage.

A B.A., even in fine art, still opens up a ton of okay-paying jobs. Jobs like paralegals, retail managers, and HR often require a bachelors degree but don’t care what that degree was in.

But you can get a generic degree in English or business admin at a community college and have a fine career as a paralegal. Don’t see why you need to go to an expensive art school.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#239

Post by snowwrestler »

slowhand09 wrote: post #234
pnathan wrote: post #112

> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,” That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about. I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay off in under 10 years without a miracle. I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well invo…

There is no free. Free means Janet's dad who didn't go to college get to pay additional so Bill's son goes for free. When resources are free, they become either worthless or completely over-utilized. If you make college free, that means colleges will still charge for classes, still charge for books, still charge for dorm rooms, etc. They'll send their bills to the government, to pay with increased tax dollars. They'l…

You should realize that primary and secondary school are already provided "free" to anyone, and the reasons that works are just as valid for college.

There's nothing magically impossible about using taxpayer money to provide 16 years of education instead of 12.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#240

Post by justinph »

This article needlessly and incorrectly shits on art school. There are many, many good careers that come out of going to art school, or better yet getting a design degree at an art school. So, maybe have a talk with your kid about _applied_ arts, not just blindly writing off a BFA.

No college teaches creative problem solving and critical thinking better than art school. Not every art school costs $75k, either (which is a price almost no one pays anyway thanks to financial aid).

I went to art school. I work in software engineering now and make good money. Art school made me fearless and pragmatic in a way I wouldn’t have gotten with a state engineering program. It was worth every cent.

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