I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams • Hacker News Board

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#211

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

lbatx wrote: post #209

honkycat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Taking your comment to its logical conclusion, then, no one should become an electrician. Too dangerous. Low (relative to a degree) pay. Well, who then is going to fulfill this necessary role?

The licensed electricians I know make far more than degree holders, outside of comp engineers/doctors/MBA from select schools. For the vast majority of non selective schools and non rigorous degrees, an electrician should easily outearn them.

Electrician pay will also continue to rise quite a bit over the next decade. I already pay far more every year than the year before, if I can even book a decent electrician.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#212

Post by honkycat » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

djaque wrote: post #136

honkycat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

The other issue is the health toll many of the trade jobs have. See what 40 years of running cable on your hands and knees as an electrician will do to you vs a cushy desk job.

Yep, exactly.

I went down this "trades are great!" rabbit hole a while ago because I had a cousin who had a friend telling him: "You can be making 6 figures in 5 years as an electrician!" I was surprised when I found out his buddy didn't have a bridge to sell him as well.

Your career is not just about money earned. It is about the lifestyle. It is about your physical health over a long period of time. It is about your chance for advancement. It is about what you are going to be doing day-to-day.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#213

Post by m11a » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #165

simonsarris wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. This is becoming less and less true for lots of cohorts. I suspect it will stop correlating for everyone soon. From a few days ago: "Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns" by Center for Household Financial Stability, St Louis Fed https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/hfs/is-college... > The college wealth premium is…

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

What if you don't plan to start your life at 63?

I'm not planning for retirement. 63 is a long way off. There's a lot of life between now and then, indeed the majority of my life is between now and then.

These kinds of "responsible financial actions" are a bit silly imho. Invest in yourself now, and spend your time well now. College pays for itself, if you spent $100k on a decent degree I guarantee you'll earn that amount ten times over in any decent career. Aside from that, it's an experience, and that's worth some money in itself.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#214

Post by slowhand09 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #98

hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

I think you overestimate the number of people attending college who "aren't college material" and underestimate the number who excel at trades. I've seen data indicating a majority portion of student loan defaults are by people who did NOT finish college, thus the worst-case scenario: they're responsible for the debt, and haven't the degree or the job to pay it back. Truly a sad place to be. You might consider the average readership of this forum isn't even your typical college-educated tech worker, but likely a more curious and intellectual type. Who is going to repair his electrical, communications, automotive, mass transit, etc infrastructure. Plumbing in non-glamorous. If you do it after hours I bet his billed rate is higher than yours. And he doesn't pay 7% on $125k of debt. His house is paid for already. My stepson has ADD and other initials to factor in. He makes $75-80k operating heavy equip. His tech school cost $25k. He owns a home. He is still close with his HS friends. 1 in 10 owns a home.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#215

Post by jlg23 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

mnm1 wrote: post #97

newguy1234 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military is also a good option to college, especially if your specialty is a skilled trade. My brother did this straight out of high school. Spent a few years overseas and then eventually changed his specialty to biomedical equipment repair. When he left the service he made 60k/year and after 5 years he is at 125k/year. Also when you are in the service, you are getting paid and if you are overseas, all your bills are…

Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.

I get the overall sentiment because I am born well-enough-off and I agree that you are basically signing away your health or even life (after all, no regular mechanic will have to fix a car in a shootout).

OTOH, lots of people don't have my fortunate background and loving but poor parents can only do so much. Housing and food being taken care of and a paycheck on top is a very good incentive if the other choice is to be a "burden" on your family for another few years...

Not gambling health or life is only possible in a very privileged setting. Those not in it might actually be making a very wise choice.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#216

Post by why_only_15 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #206

everdev wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

45 years from now, $2.1M adjusted for inflation (3%) is $533K. A lot of these compound interest calculators don't show you the values adjusted for inflation. It sounds great when you get 21x your investment. 5x doesn't sound as great, but it's more realistic.

The 7% figure they gave is already adjusted for inflation.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#217

Post by downerending » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #16

These parents are heroes. > A couple months ago, my 17-year-old daughter’s guidance counselor called her into his office to ask pretty much the only question that adults ask high school seniors: “What colleges are you applying to?” When Ella tossed off a handful of universities, he said, “Have you thought about going to art school?” This is goddamn malpractice. > Like most parents, who save on average $18,000 for the…

> Your job as a parent is to socialize your children. And that means telling them how the world works.

God I wish there had been someone to do this for me, and for all kinds of things, not just finances and career planning. (My parents tried some, but they didn't know much of this themselves.) Now that I'm "old", I'm just starting to get the hang of some of this stuff.

That said, in my youth I suppose I would have been too "smart" to accept advice like this most of the time.

(Want some free education about the business world? Read every Dilbert strip--free online--and think about what they're alluding to.)

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#218

Post by m11a » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:55 PM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #192

everdev wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

> self-taught programming and design skills. This is essentially my story too, but IMHE, it hasn't been a realistic option for the people I have known who "don't like academics," and consequently struggled or opted out of the system. (Fwiw, I couldn't stand academics. However, through dint of self study, it didn't prevent me from graduating.)

There's many viable routes that don't have to be academic. I hate the idea of universities being pushed down everyone's throat. They're higher education institutions and should be for people actually interested in academics and possibly/likely research.

Half of the 'degrees' we have now are not academic, and half of these universities shouldn't even exist. I think all routes are fine. Everyone has different interests and learns differently. Trade school should be a prestigious route in its own right and they should be built up as such, rather than trying to chuck everyone into university regardless of whether it's the correct path for them. There shouldn't be a 'university' culture.

From my high school I can think of less than 10% of people that were honestly interested in/good at academics (of any type, science or arts/humanities) that should've carried on to university. In reality, it was pushed down and over 60% went. Most of them just spent their time partying.

And on the same note, schools should be better. It's sad that some people don't get to find their love in academics until college. It isn't necessarily always late blooming imo, it's that public pre-college education often sucks.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#219

Post by jki275 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #156

jki275 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extremely low probability of any of those happening. Besides, military service changes you. It gives you perspective you will never get anywhere else.

I have 3 nephews who served in the military. 2 have PTSD, one severe. The one with severe PTSD also got to spend 6 months in a hospital after being shot out of the air in a conflict that we are theoretically not involved in. Given their other options, military service might have been a good thing. But the odds of PTSD or injury are much, much higher than I would like.

I served in the military for twenty three years.

My sample size is thousands of times yours.

The odds are very low.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#220

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #181

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And $26k is still insane, at least compared to when I went to school in the 90s. It’s tough these days.

According to a random inflation calculator off the front page of a search (no doubt a sterling source of information) that's about $14,500 equivalent dollars. How does that compare to what you paid?

I paid $2700/year for tuition, $295/month for rent on a basement apartment (this is Seattle, so even in the 90s rents were kind of high on something nicer), and skimped on food way too much.

Like I said, it was easier in those days. Dad paid my tuition, I paid everything else with a minimum wage job (and later internships, upgrading my apartment to a nicer university provided $425/month).

Doing the math, it was way less than $10k.