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I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

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Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#191

Post by hajile »

honkycat wrote: post #98
hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

I worked in that particular trade for quite a while, so I'm not speaking from ignorance. You move away from bucket truck work and the serious injury rates plummet (and bucket truck work -- especially line work -- pays way above average). Work for the union where safety is actually enforced and that rate plummets again.

While freak accidents happen, most are due to foolish people doing foolish things. For example, you mention getting your arm fried, but "working it hot" is almost always going to break safety regulations. I got hit with 480v once, but only because someone flagrantly broke safety regulations and cut my lockout off of a breaker.

If you think injuries don't happen at walmart, try working as a stocker for a few weeks. Only a fraction of a fraction of walmart employees are ever managers and it seems they are very often put there due to nepotism rather than merit. At least if you broke your back as an electrician, you make enough to save for retirement and the IBEW has great disability benefits.

Your last statement disregards three important facts of life. First, if everyone could get that computer job, it would pay next to nothing. Most people simply don't have what it takes. Second, as long as you like having electricity, there will be a demand for electricians. Somebody must do that job and the pay is very good. Thirdly, liking a job is not a pre-requisite. I very seriously doubt most people in the service sector like their jobs. If you're going to dislike your job anyway, you might as well go for the one with higher compensation. If you do decide to switch careers later, you'd be a lot better off with all that extra money.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#192

Post by WalterSear »

everdev wrote: post #165
simonsarris wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. This is becoming less and less true for lots of cohorts. I suspect it will stop correlating for everyone soon. From a few days ago: "Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns" by Center for Household Financial Stability, St Louis Fed https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/hfs/is-college... > The college wealth premium is…

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

> self-taught programming and design skills.

This is essentially my story too, but IMHE, it hasn't been a realistic option for the people I have known who "don't like academics," and consequently struggled or opted out of the system.

(Fwiw, I couldn't stand academics. However, through dint of self study, it didn't prevent me from graduating.)

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#193

Post by everdev »

learc83 wrote: post #172
everdev wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

Low tier college should be about $10k a year and that's assumimg you don't do 2 years a community college. You shouldn't live on campus if you're price sensitive. And you cant include room and board in your calculations because you'd need that anyway. 7% annual returns are also misleading because it ignores inflation. Edit--I've since learned that 7% average already adjusts for inflation.

7% is adjusted for inflation. It's about 10% without: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average...

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#194

Post by SkyBelow »

vsskanth wrote: post #4

Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings (art, theatre etc.) ? Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate themselves

I would suggest them getting two degrees. One would need to be in something they can tolerate doing for a living that has a good chance of earning enough money (though the actual definition of enough differs between people) and the other in what they love to do.

This does mean sacrificing a lot of the fun during college, but in exchange you get both an education in what you love and a career that can support what you love even if what you love isn't financially viable.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#196

Post by pedrosorio »

learc83 wrote: post #172
everdev wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

Low tier college should be about $10k a year and that's assumimg you don't do 2 years a community college. You shouldn't live on campus if you're price sensitive. And you cant include room and board in your calculations because you'd need that anyway. 7% annual returns are also misleading because it ignores inflation. Edit--I've since learned that 7% average already adjusts for inflation.

> 7% annual returns are also misleading because it ignores inflation.

"One of the major problems for an investor hoping to regularly recreate that 10% average return is inflation. Adjusted for inflation, the historical average annual return is only around 7%."

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average...

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#197

Post by tryptophan »

crmrc114 wrote: post #19
toolslive wrote: post #11

What I don't understand is: why don't they go to a university in Europe? I just checked for my alma mater: tuition fee is ~500 euro for 1 year. You pay about 4k in rent per year (this is probably too high an estimate). The level of education is high, and the programs are available in English.

This is why many doctors in the US get their basic medical schooling outside of the US. (Often in the Caribbean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the... )

Let's not sugar coat this. The #1 reason people go Caribbean is that they can't get into a US MD school.

Caribbean schools are often more expensive than US ones, and only like 20% of their grads actually end up becoming US doctors. When it comes time to apply for residencies, carribbean students get put at the bottom of the pile, if the programs even bother to look at their application at all.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#198

Post by throwawayhhakdl »

Aloha wrote: post #160
honkycat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

> You can make that kind of money as a manager at Walmart and you do not run the risk of getting your arm fried off or falling off a telephone pole. Yes, but we need many more trades people than managers at Wal-Mart.

Not really. We need more trade people than managers at Wal-Mart specifically, but there’s plenty of equivalent positions at other companies.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#199

Post by throwawayhhakdl »

learc83 wrote: post #152
starpilot wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factoring in tuition costs, plumbers earn almost the same lifetime income as doctors: https://www.high-profile.com/plumber-vs-doctor-who-brings-in... And it's generally not a life threatening career.

That's complete bullshit. I've known plenty of plumbers, I've never met one who had almost $1 million saved up by 33--which is the example they are using. Sure some small percentage of plumbers might make $90k after 5 years and manage to seriously save. But that's not anywhere close to normal. Also even with the cherry picked example of a union plumber who is unbelievably disciplined with respect to saving. And a doc…

Plumber != Plumbing business owner.

That’s the distinction most people gloss over.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#200

Post by dragonwriter »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #147
refurb wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to understand the American mentality. I’ve talked with parents who told me how unfortunate that their kid can’t go to a good school. The school has a score of 9.2/10 versus the school they wanted which scores 9.5/10.

We can all thank Greatschools and their Gates foundation grants for making everyone think you can assign a number to the quality of a school (which most people in the rest of the world would think is nonsense), and to perpetuate redlining by making sure your kids go to school only with other wasian people.

The policy push toward simple reduced-to-a-number school report cards significantly predates Greatschools, which just jumped on the bandwagon.
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