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Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

reuters.com

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Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#621

Post by WalterBright »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #619
WalterBright wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're arguing semantics Trying to argue that the trim system erratically coming on and driving the nose down is not "runaway trim" is arguing semantics. Runaway trim is when the trim is doing something dangerous without command from the pilot. If the cockpit voice recorder reveals them discussing the definition of "runaway trim" and deciding that the instructions Boeing provided didn't apply, I'd be surprised and…

> Exactly, the trim switches override the MCAS. That's why you use the trim switches to set it back to normal, then hit the cutoff switches. On the 737 Max there is no way to disable the MCAS without also disabling the electric trim.

Sigh. With the electric trim enabled, the trim switches will override any MCAS commands. This is why, again:

1. trim to normal with the electric trim switches

2. cut off the stabilizer trim

Do it in that order. Doing step 2 before step 1 won't work.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#622

Post by WalterBright »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #620
WalterBright wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Ethiopian crew tried the cutout switches and found they couldn't trim the airplane with the hand cranks because Boeing lied. How is that a pilot training issue? The Emergency Airworthiness Directive to all MAX crews says: "Initially, higher control forces may be needed to overcome any stabilizer nose down trim already applied. Electric stabilizer trim can be used to neutralize control column pitch forces before…

Initially, higher control forces may be needed to overcome any stabilizer nose down trim already applied. Electric stabilizer trim can be used to neutralize control column pitch forces before moving the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches to CUTOUT. Manual stabilizer trim can be used before and after the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT. If the graphs are to be believed neither the electric commands nor hand crank…

I don't know what graph you're looking at. The reports I saw was that the EA pilots did not follow the procedure:

1. trim to normal with the electric trim switches

2. cut off the stabilizer trim

What the EA pilots did was:

1. cut off the stabilizer trim

2. try to use the hand cranks to trim to normal

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#623

Post by philwelch »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #602
philwelch wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing the tests is fine, but Boeing is acting as though the tests were successful when they were not. Between this and the parachute issues from the pad abort test, I think actually approving Starliner for crewed use would constitute normalization of deviance. This is historically how astronauts die.

They were partially successful, which is a realistic goal. Few things work flawlessly the first or second go, even rocket science. I'm not sure why you're being so binary here. It's also why it wasn't manned, they have to test to work out the kinks. Overall Starliner was a bigger success than not.

I’m not saying to cancel the thing altogether, just maybe run some more unmanned tests first to make sure.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#624

Post by vkou »

sjg007 wrote: post #615
vkou wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if the recession hit a few years before you retire, your portfolio will never get a chance to recover from that hit. Your 20 years of runway becomes 12.

I mean you can move the goal posts here... yes a 401k is risky.

I can fudge the numbers a bit - but you only get one shot at this sort of thing, though, and you can't predict the future. You either take risk with your 401K, or you keep too much of it in bonds, and lose it all to inflation.

Thanks to that, a fixed benefit pension as part of your retirement strategy is much more fiscally responsible than going all in on either a 401K, or a pension.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#625

Post by pizlonator »

asperous wrote: post #326
pytester wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There needs to be a broader cultural backlash against the cult of MBAs first.

As a programmer who got an MBA, I can tell you that in my cohort there were absolutely extremely smart super stars who put the time into everything they do and have the talent to make good decisions and have the empathy to be good managers. There were also people who tried their best but their judgement was clearly lacking. My cohort has Civil Engineers, Materials engineers, Physicians, Finance, Accountants.. and als…

It’s not about being smart or not smart as a person. It’s whether earning the mba and then applying what you learned to a domain that you don’t understand is a good idea. I think folks are starting to realize that it’s a terrible idea and we should stop doing it.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#626

Post by totalZero »

rossdavidh wrote: post #613
totalZero wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close. There are only two companies in the world that can do what Boeing and Airbus do. The real question is, why is BA stock still trading above 330? Why are big money guys so confident about the company's future?

If you are not thinking on a 10-year timespan, but more of a 10-month, 10-day, or 10-minute timespan, it will take a while before long-term doom is reflected in the price. Even in the late 1970's, when GM's fate was more or less sealed, their price was holding up reasonably well. http://omurtlak69.blogspot.com/2012/01/general-motors-stock-...

Interesting point. For me it's more a question of whether the post-2016-election rally is organic. "Why the appreciation in value" is a different question than "why hasn't the stock sold off?"

We have seen incredible growth in market cap. Ultimately Boeing does big business with the Department of Defense and their spending is up, but the lion's share of Boeing's profits come from commercial aviation if I'm not mistaken. The tax cuts and cash repatriation holiday were great too, but how much can that reduction in tax burden really account for this rally in the value of BA? Seems like a sell to me on first glance, but the fact that there is strong support here at 330 despite all that has happened is telling that some big money players are confident that Boeing is irreplaceable.

A friend of mine refuses to bet against BA because it makes up a large component of the DJIA, which the President appears to treat as his own personal economic scoreboard.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#627

Post by yason »

gomijacogeo wrote: post #537
yason wrote: post #459

The only credible way from here is to: - remove the hack that is MCAS for the purpose of being able to piggyback on the old 737 type certificate; - start the process of type-certifying 737-MAX as the individual design that it is without MCAS instead of trying to make it behave like the old 737 just to keep things on the cheap side; - and offer free type certification for existing 737 pilots to obtain their certificat…

Not quite. I don't think you all realize how stupendously expensive certifying a new type is. Boeing and the airlines wouldn't be prepared to absorb the extra costs just to have a slightly more efficient 737 at the other end of it. - MCAS needs to die. I doubt I could have written a subsystem that tries harder to kill you if I tried. Everything about that hack is grossly negligent and possibly criminal. - Both AoA se…

Not quite. I don't think you all realize how stupendously expensive certifying a new type is. Boeing and the airlines wouldn't be prepared to absorb the extra costs just to have a slightly more efficient 737 at the other end of it.

I don't have numbers but I do realize it's very, very expensive. That's exactly why Boeing has tried to avoid a new type certification for decades, that's why they added MCAS to make MAX behave like the old 737, and I do think it's about the damn time they bite the bullet on that one. All this hassle will end up costing Boeing a lot more than a new type-certificate which would allow them much more runway in the future.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#628

Post by ferzul »

hodgesrm wrote: post #494
bingtop wrote: post #482

Somehow the investor class has managed to convince the rest of the world that losing a CEO job is a “punishment” and that the public should be satisfied with this sacrifice. It’s like the ancient kings murdering a slave child in a ceremony to appease the “gods” for the outcomes of bad leadership or bad weather.

Muilenberg was raked over the coals in the media--and rightly so--before being publicly fired. His name is pretty much mud at this point. So yes, I think he was punished amply.

Will he need to work another day in his life?

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#629

Post by ferzul »

temac wrote: post #361
Jamwinner wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, meetings still happen face to face for business to get done. Giving up air travel, is not a reasonable option for the world at large.

Giving up things like modern medicine would not be reasonable. Giving up air travel, or at least reducing it vastly, would be merely an inconvenience. Well yeah, giving up air travel entirely would be somehow a mess, but even there it is completely sure we can make it work. In France the train is ~50 x more carbon efficient. We will not be able to keep emitting like crazy forever (we actually should have stopped comp…

If trains are so much better, why is it cheaper to fly?

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#630

Post by gomijacogeo »

CydeWeys wrote: post #565
gomijacogeo wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. I don't think you all realize how stupendously expensive certifying a new type is. Boeing and the airlines wouldn't be prepared to absorb the extra costs just to have a slightly more efficient 737 at the other end of it. - MCAS needs to die. I doubt I could have written a subsystem that tries harder to kill you if I tried. Everything about that hack is grossly negligent and possibly criminal. - Both AoA se…

It needs three AoA sensors, like Airbus planes have. Two isn't enough for such a safety-critical system. When one malfunctions, you still need to know what the correct value is.

It depends on what the flight characteristics of the Max8 really are - something I've not seen a good writeup on. If the plane really can get away from pilots, then you're likely right (i.e. it really needs a proper flight envelope protection system - and the Max8 is dead). If it's just that the plane flies differently from other 737's, then 2 + subtype training is probably sufficient.
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